Forum Moderators: phranque
Can anyone give me an approximate idea of hours per annum involved in running a directory (small, niche market, maximum 3,000 entries)?
Design, hosting… issues are not necessary.
TIA
Rich
I would say if you use a content management system to update it, then you wont have much maintainence to do.
I run a small directory (around 1-2k listings) and only really update new submissions, so I dont spend much time on it.
Perhaps an hour or so each morning (reviewing submissions, adding them manually and dealing with email).
But this may a kinda low estimate as I really dont spending any time marketing the site and the traffic flow has be decreasing steadily over the past few months (im getting off ma ass and redesigning it now tho!).
Scott
Looks like a feasible option @ 1 hour per day. What content management system do you use?
Rich
I just add listings by hand (er, well HTML editor).
It was my first site and I havent really done much to get it off the ground. I use it to test out SEO techniques if im not sure what impact they will have (so I dont mess up my other sites).
It's only getting about 5k visitors per month (local country directory), and there aren't too many submissions. Any sites that are submitted are easy to vet - they are either country specific or not, so that doesn't take much time.
I do a rough check for the sites using spammy techniques, but frankly im not bothered about PR or whether they reciprocate or not (although most do).
It's also good to get new sites indexed quickly! ;)
Like I said, Im redesigning it and im going to target a broad spectrum than just my region, so i think there will be more work involved later on, but I cant see it being that much.
General enquiries are link requests and dont take much trouble. There are occaisional odd-balls (ie, "I once met someone from <my country> - do you know him?".....) but they are few and far between.
If you aren't going to use a links management system, then I would suggest creating templates and processes for adding new entries - it cuts down the maintainence time a lot.
Scott
Thanks for that, I'll pass the odd balls on to you and automate everything else :)
Rich
Good luck and if you need anymore info feel free to sticky me.
Scott
So, right back at you.
Will listers find you, or will you find them? Are you just posting a list?
Do you charge for a listing? How?
What are the listers able to put on your directory? A URL only? A logo? A Description?
Do you want to quality control these listings?
How is you page structured? Catagories or just a laundry list?
Are you trying to optimize the directory for the engines?
Are your listings for a predefined period of time?
Can the lister update their listing? How?
How is your site structured to scale as information therein increases?
How big is the industry that you are going after? Geo-Vertical? Geo? Or Vertical?
On and on. Your answers to these questions will dictate the time it takes to run an online directory. If you want to shed some more light, I would be happy to answer further as this is a topic i am very interested in, with considerable experience that I can share:)
A small thing that I remembered too is be sure to launch the site with plenty of content (ie listings) on it. It's just like a forum - no one will participate if it's empty.
I edit a directory cat in ODP and ive turned down a lot of very nice "directory" sites that have only like 5 listings in 200 pages.
Scott
Yes, that is another important point. How one goes about Population is a critical factor.
Your point about ODP is also well taken. I have had my fair share of experience dealing with ODP on directories issues.
Richard, lets start with why you are doing it and go from there.
Cause directories are about decisions, whereas MarketingGuy, may say populate, populate, populate. I may say, drawl the line clearly as to acceptance levels thereby maximizing the benefit/ROI/Clicks to those listing.
It is amazing the variance in how directories are being established. I am clearly on one side of the spectrum, and not the norm as I can explain in more detail.
1) Do not expect end users to start adding listings, you need to be on offense on this one.
2) Make sure that you keep up with the deadlinks.
3) Most listing owners might not be very eager to come and do updates on your web site, as and when they change their services or busienss.....etc..
4) To much ads from beginning, might be produce negative effects.
5) If think you will have good amount of traffic, be prepared to answer the questions from both fronts (people submitting listings & web surfers)
I will say that setting up a directory is not that hard, however keep up with it - might be.
Good luck :)
In trying to come up with ways to revitalize a site I suddenly said "Wow, look at all these (topic) sites I have bookmarked, mostly already categorized. Look at DMOZ, I'm already well ahead of the game."
Looking around a found many 'link directory' type scripts, some feeble, some great, some free, some several hundred bucks. But there are a couple of mid-range products that look pretty good. Looks like it's worth a go.
Chicago, that's a great list of questions to ask, sure does help to get the gray matter focused.
I am clearly on one side of the spectrum, and not the norm as I can explain in more detail.
Yeah, could you amplify a bit? I'd rather plan much better in the early stages than to switch in mid stream (have done much too much of that over the past couple of years.
And more things to keep in mind from Needscripts. A heck of a lot of planning to do.
Jim
Am I establishing a directory(ies) because there is a need in the marketplace to organize fragmented information, and I am just a nice guy who will do it without a charge (an maybe some PR benefit- maybe reciprical links), or, is a directory being established so as to work with and agressively market a highly identifiable client base, to increase their exposure, maximize their revenue, AND make money for YOURSELF in the process.
TWO EXTREMELY DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES. So, in putting forth a posting, it may be important to FIRST mention which side of the spectrum you are on, as replies must take this into consideration.
My experience, is on the making money side. And boy has it been successful. Clients are litterly raving... while buying listings for long period of times (years - with a renewal rate at 97%). With this approach, however, there is a 100 issues that arise, in making this work. If anyone wants to talk about the positives, negatives, dangers, et al. and other issues surrounding this, I would be happy to comment from this perspective.
However through my redesign im thinking about ways to monetise the site, so I would appreciate any thoughs you have on this transision.
scott :)
Google default search results page = 10 sites.
# of users that do not go to page 2 - 57%
Number of companies per keyword phrase (aka - geo-vert/vert/geo) that are able to capitalize on Google to its fullest = 10 at tops (sans ADwords).
Number of companies that want to capitalize- 100s or 1000s.
Directory Markeplace - All companies sans 10 (but as you find the 10 are often the first to sign)
Now the user:
A user is looking for something. They on average do not go to the second page, certainly not the third (usually they switch engines or use a different phrase).
So they get 10 default listings at Google. GUESS WHO IS ON TOP? The most relevant companies/site? NO The best companies/ sites? NO Who is on top are the best OPTIMIZED sites.
Lets say though that 5 out of 10 listings are very relevant. As a user do you want to weed through all the sites looking for the one? Or do you want to go to one site - a directory - that contains the information you are looking for in one place? Our user groups overwhelmingly chose the latter. In fact, users ARE DOWN RIGHT TURNED OFF BY SEARCH RESULTS MOST OF THE TIME.
So, if you can create an environment, wherein you are solving TWO critical business problems 1) the user experience and 2)exposure to quality and relevant business/sites that otherwise would not/ could not have this exposure------you are doing something right.
Now- is it easy--- NO. I have spent years studing and trying to perfect the equation. And again, can share my experience if any of you have any direct questions about type of directory, size, optimization, cost, ROI, population, upkeep, etc.
Got to get to a meeting :(
Will respond in more detail. Tommorow.
Rich
I'm creating a directory as we speak. Here's my plan:
1) Organize industry related fragmented info. These are free listings.
2) Add related commercial listings. These are pay or OR free with reciprocal link.
I'll populate to start and won't release the commercial option until the free listings are well developed.
What I've been flip flopping on is whether or not to make this a part of the site it is related to, or make it a stand alone directory. Any thoughts?
The directory is a perfect fit with the site, but both would be good on their own too. Normally, I would build it into the site, but wonder if that's the best option.
So far this is the brief outline
Purpose
Pure resource site, (no frills) requiring high level well structured data. Clients want exposure. End users want an easy way to source clients.
Content
Contact info
URL + Email
Specialist discription
Keywords
Search facilities
Keywords
Location
Specialism(s)
Charges – short term
Free listings
Charges – long term
Cannot see anything wrong with following the G model. So main sponers top page. Second level page right. Or whatever current flavour of the month is.
Target Market
Niche
B2B
directory listing numbers probably no more than 3k
End user probably no more than 1K
Provides end users with quick access to practitioners working
End user budgets £1,000 – Multi million. But the average contract is worth about £20K
Data
End user submission and updating facilities
Email requests sent out every 3 months to get them to re visist & confirm or update data (otherwise it is taken off line).
What do we get
PR
No direct competition @ present - existing comp., is fragmented by specialism and is, in the main recipricol link stuff
High placement on a promotional resource
Phase 2 payments
A niche marketing mix potential for clients
Sorry it's sparse. Things have gone quite so have just started to jot things down.
What does it look like so far?
Rich
if i understand you right, it sounds as if you are 1) aggregating industry info and 2)selling commercial listings within a particular vertical and you are tyring to decide whether to seperate the 1 from 2. if this is the case, then here is my opinion:
a)as far a providing commercial listing options on a free with recip link or for a charge, I would make clear distinction between the two. This is what our firm does - home page = premium space = finite amount of listers = premium cost = premium exposure. If they do not want to pay, they go into the Additional Resource (links) sections and can list for free with a recip. Generally from our experience, it is NOT commercial listings who choose the free spot. WHY? 1- they do not want to link to your site which provides exposure to their competitors and 2- they see their competitors on your home page and let me tell you what happens to companies when they see that. They don't only want to be listed, they want to be FIRST. IMHO, what I would do if I were you, is take your aggregation of industry info and make it free with a recip and take your commercial listings and charge a fee (one must decide on price and number of listings to accept however) This would be good because the industry info is likely to recipricate with a link- the commercial is not so apt. Also there are many clever ways to structure your content and seperate pages don't have to be the answer.
b)Seperate or not to seperate. Let me say that although our firm, which is a subsidiary of my Development and Marketing company has been outrageously successful with clients who litterly LOVE us, many directories including ODP do not like our business model. Kills me because we really help business and users alike, but it is the case. If you keep your commercial and industry listing together Craig, you will have much better chance at an ODP listing. ODP doesn't like it when you have a small, tight, finit in structure directory as Scott (marketingguy) began to stress above. You overcome this by providing substantive and augmentative info to your commercial listings.
A couple of side notes:
Although Population is often a problem, by offering listing ORDER on a first come first serve basis, you create a competitive frenzy. It really really helps to incentivise.
People will pay if you have the right structure. Our firm has sales people that proactively calls, but 50%+ of our clients find us.
Page Rank is becoming sooooo important that people are desparate for quality links.
If one decides to charge, then there better be a return on investment. Our firm gets gifts in the mail every week from our clients- besides the high renewal rate etc. WHY? ROI. How? Keep the junk out of the directory, and if you charge, list ONLY quality companies and limit the number you will work with. The LIMIT part is highly controversial, but in my opinion it is the single most important ingrediant to successfully charging (besides number 1-5 ranked SERP:) - unless you are talking about a couple buck per listing. People will not pay you every month if they think that 100s of companies are going to list. But back to the competitive frenzy point. If you say that you are going to list only 20 quality companies (just for example), first come first serve, boy does that change things. They may say no at first, but they will be back as things start to fill. Mark my words. When your directories fill, waiting lists will start.
Out on the limb with so much info but for reference, we charge $50/mo with three month minimums.
This post is getting crazy and I feel like I have a million other things to say, better stop ...sorry about the ridiculous length.
Certainly got me thinking about the direction i should take with my directory! :)
Cheers
Scott
...sorry about the ridiculous length.
If you say that you are going to list only 20 quality companies (just for example)
Another example came to my mind, how about not listing 2 companies that are in a 3-5 mile readius of each other?
Do you think that could work?
Leo
The directory itself will be one complete resource with free and pay listings. In addition to the directory I have a perfectly related content heavy site.
What I'm trying to decide is do I do it all on one site, or make one site for the directory and one for the content site?
Long term which is best? My inclination is to put it all on one site, but I don't want to miss any opportunities by doing so.
Although it is also non profit and we only list information sites.
But, I would look at it from the position of your users.
Will the users on the exisiting site benefit from the directory? Will advertisers on the directory wish to target your existing users? Most likely the answer to both would be yes.
So there would be a definite business case for keeping them together (advertising on an established site would be easier to pitch). Also, as you exisitng site gains prestige, so does the value of advertising on it.
But, there is also a case for spliting them too.
Namely, you can include your existing site as a sponsored listing on your directory, therefore benefiting from traffic and exposure from that, as well as PR and inbound linking benefits.
It would also allow you the flexibility to take the sites in different directions in the future.
No set answer to your question im afraid, but some food for thought.
Scott :)
Added thought:
The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts vs having two (or more) points of attack? :)
[edited by: Marketing_Guy at 6:00 pm (utc) on April 15, 2003]
Thanks for all the pointers
Should read
Chicago I love the "competitive frenzy concept" - so many permutations... and solves so many net problems.
A practise the SE's and Diretories could adopt - would cut out so much drift wood.
Wish I was working on the project now.
Rich
One more post for the time being. I am more than happy to keep this discussion going over the long-term.
Several additional and re-emphasized points.
1.Starting a directory is about making decisions. Deciding who you want to be.
I suggest asking these questions first:
2. How much money do I want to make? How many listings at what price will that require.
3. Do you want to run 1 directory or many. Do you want to run freestanding directories or a topic directory hub with niche pages that you target for seo.
4. What is the nature of the GEO or VERT that I want to compete within. What is the search volume for related keywords. What is the bidding pressure like. Can you afford PPC or is this an optimization only proposition. Can you acheive a page 1 SERP (prefferably 1-5)for the most competitive keyword for the directory(ies).
5. DIRECTORIES ARE ABOUT KEYWORDS! Pick only the top target keywords to go after- I generally only do one with a mind on plural/sing. In all cases this keyword selection dominates the marketplace (80%+of total keyword universe)
6. Determine if there are other competitors in lets call it your SEGMENT(Segment=director focus + keyword focus). If so how are they arranged? What will be you competitive advantages? And differentiating factors. What do they charge? Is it worth going after.
7. Determine what the ROI is for a company on your directory, relative to the traffic you will get, given the companies revenue structure, the amount of companies on your directory, and the amount the pay for a listing.
8. Determine if you want the client to control the listing or you. And if its the client, determine how much quality control you want.
9. In my experience, SMALL BUSINESS- with a service orientation EATS THIS UP. Decide what your customer looks like from a predispositional standpoint-ie where else do they have to buy great advertising- how savvy are they on-line - determine if they have the predispositions to buy before you build anything.
10. Decide if you will let prospects and clients see site traffic and click data.
11. Decide how you will track renewals if time sensitive
12. Pre-populate the site so as to discourage negative results prior to it being adequately filled. Let users try it for free for a week. This works too, guys, because my customer GET CUSTOMERS.
13. Put yourself in a search engine user/prospects shoes and ASK yourself- If i typed keyword phrase into a search engine and arrived at your directory site- AM I FOR SURE getting what I am looking for? Is it really helpful - more than a link? If you answer no, then start over.
14. CONCENTRATE ON SEO- THIS IS CRITICAL - If you want to be the top directory and charge- THEN YOU NEED TO BE THE TOP. People love to pay when they know they are working with the best (at least for the keyword phrase). Other directories will come and go around you, stick to SEO and everything take care of itself.
15. Decide on billing- monthly, upfront, checks, merchant account (automation is key, so to is auto monthly bill features).
16. CREATE A CONTINGENCY PLAN IN THE EVENT THAT SOMETHING WITH GOOGLE GOES WRONG. You have paying clients and they expect something- if something goes wrong you must be prepared to do one of many options- such as buy CPCs, give gaurantees to clients- create a new marketing buy (i have a few in place we go down and i would say- look here and look there- and look here- google will be back- you want to leave- oh really - and lose your position for this price- knowing we are the best-blah blah-blah)
17. BE READY TO CHANGE
18. Believe in your value by answering the questions above and convey that to your clients
19. Dedicate yourself to making sales over the phone- show the client the serp (dont just go to the URL)
20. Decide if you will provide other content/resources besides the paid listings.
21. Decide on whether you site can cultivate other revenue streams - one example of what we do is have one special offer box (premium) the rest of the ads can't be salesy, must be descriptive
22. Dont create a directory focusing on 1-3 keyword phrases with a total search volume of 200 searches per month and think you will make 30 clients happy. Work the equation, there are unbelievable gems out there.
23. Be fearless and just DO IT.
gotta go....
Gotta go to - will try to sleep with all these ideas coming into my head.
'night all
Leo
From where do you guys plan to seed a new directory from?
Is it from ODP or is there any choice other than that?
Thanks in advance for the reply.
-iThink
At the offset the first thing you need to do is decide how you intend to manage your directory. There are a lot of scripts out there that are designed with this in mind. A few of the common ones are links 2 and hyperseek. There are lot more but I mentioned the most popular. You should experiment with as many applications as possible, because when you start to build your directory you really do pass the point of no simple return. Once you have decided what software you wish to use the next task is to design the category layout. This is by far the most time consuming section of your set up but very important. You need to set up your categories and sub categories so they can later be split out onto yet more subs. This is very important to ensure each of yur category pages retains it's own theme within your topic.
What I would then do it to seed your directory with the best sites out there within the topic of your directory. this will add to page content. and make people want to be included.
One of the major problems i encounter is that each week i get about 500 submissions, out of these i think i get about 100 that actually get listed, you will always get spammy sites that seam to think that you will list anything, You will also have the problems of auto submission software and submission services adding sites to wrong or no categories. All in all i think it is worth it, I enjoy editing and feel that the category set up i have works pretty well. Directory categories do well in serps and with links back to the rest of your site a directory is a decent investment for any site.
