Themes (part 2)

[mr_dredd]

(continued from Part One [webmasterworld.com])

just a couple of queries on the above:

1) is it really the case that index page is of hardly any value? Lots of searches i do on competitive keywords often have a top 10 full of index pages. I thought that the title tag on the index page for example was one of the most important tags?

2) subdomains v. subdirectories - isn't a problem with subdomains that, e.g. google, they don't keep the same link pop as the main domain. I have a few clients which i use subdomains for, but have had real problems getting these in google, as i can't get them in dmoz for example.

??!! Any responses?

[bigjohnt]

About subdomains in DMOZ - you really need to have them listed in order to gain much from google.
I have had no problem using subd's with DMOZ - they just absolutely have to have unique content, created especially for the category that benefits you most. The less commercial and more useful generic info the better.
Remember to craft those subd pages for your intended target. I was able to launch 4 subd's in mid September, to have them in the top ten of AOL results for highly competitive keywords in time for Christmas <dvd players, cd players, stereo receivers, etc for example>
<unfortunately, the client changed everything, and all the subd's became instant 404's. Just in time for a VP to bellow, "WHERE ARE THE RESULTS??" Some clients just don't understand, we give them rankings, and they change the addresses on the pages ... DUH!

BTW, Brett - YOU ROCK! The whole themes thing was a mystery until I started reading your info.

[mr_dredd]

ok but that still doesn't answer the problem about link pop....??
(and the index page? - i still think that is v. important)!!

[Brett_Tabke]

re: index page

It is very, very exceedingly rare that any searches you are found under for your home page are quality searches or searches that line up with your sites prime keywords. The rare exception to that is from Google where the ODP and other authority directories that link to your home page can have an effect. It is very difficult to get a home root index page on a domain to rank well.

Why do you think the home page is important for rankings purposes?

Yes, subdomains and link pop is difficult. Google does keep a seperate page rank for them - and that is tough. I'm fighting it right here where a couple of cheery links are pointed at the domain.com instead of www.domain.com. I can only imagine how much better off we would be if they all pointed at the www.domain.com that I've promoted. However, if your content is different on the subdomains, it make all the difference in the world to separate that content.

[mr_dredd]

ok, thanks brett, good to hear that I'm not the only one concerned about link pop with sub-domains!!

But about the index page - for example, a search of "search engine promotion" on FAST brings 9/10 index pages (in first 10 results), "dvd players" 8/10 index pages - even a more precise term like "london flats to rent" = 6/10.

Am I missing something? Am i being stupid!!!? :)

[seth_wilde]

From my experience fast loves the homepage. The more competitive the phrase the more likely your to see the first page of serps filled with index pages. From my observations off page criteria seems to play a big role in this.

[mr_dredd]

ok, but i see this preference for index pages in altavista too...

[Brett_Tabke]

But is that because of anything YOU have done seth, or just because it *is* the homepage? (I've always felt it is the latter). Ranking well, and ranking well on purpose are 2 different things. I think the whole deal with fast is just because it is the root page.

[mr_dredd]

Personally, I always put the obvious metatags on the index page, make sure my main keywords are in the title tag, try and get some keywords in the text, or at least link to my hallway pages with keyword rich text. If it's a framset, then i optimise the noframes. Certainly, there are big limitations on the index page (re:design etc), and you could never optimise an index page as well as a doorway page, but the only reason i questioned this index page thing in the first place was because:

1) on most search engines (especially fast, altavista, google)index pages always seem to be very prominant in the 1st 10 results and
2) I always thought that the content on the index page, because it is the first page, is weighted more heavily than following pages.

At times I have just included some keywords in the title tag of an index page and have increased the ranking of that keyword just by that (regardless of the optimised page).

Now maybe I am getting this wrong, and it may be, as sethe says, primarily due to offpage criteria (and obviously dmoz, etc).
?????????:)

[seth_wilde]

"is that because of anything YOU have done seth, or just because it *is* the homepage?"

I think it's a little of both, because it "is" the homepage it naturally has very strong internal linkage (every page on the site including doorways link to it) as well as having very strong external linkage (because it's generally the page of choice to link with). This, and the directory listings that Brett mention, are the main factors behind google preference of the homepage. With fast this seems to play a strong role but good text optimization is also required. AltaVista doesn't seem to favor the homepage nearly as much as fast or google.

[JamesR]

sorry to digress a bit, but is it possible to water your theme down too far? Brett you have a lot of topics on WmW, divided into subdirs, does that hurt the main theme or can you have as many subthemes in as many subdirs as you wish?

[agerhart]

hey Guys,

I see noone has posted in a couple of days, so I am going put up a new question concerning themes, and theme structuring. I am working on a very important project, that must be done correctly, and I have run into a few problems.

I would like to the site as a theme-based site, as I have done alot of reading around here, and I have heard nothing but good things. I have started to lay out the structure of the site using flowcharts (sidenote: microsoft visio is awesome for this.....just started using it) and stuff like that, but this is where the problem comes in.

At the bottom level of the structural pyramid where the 'money pages' are supposed and the good keywords used, the keywords will not match the content of the page (which, from all the reading I have been doing, I understand to be very beneficial). Instead, the money keywords or phrases will match on the 2nd or 3rd level, which wouldn't matter except for the fact that there isn't going to be much content.

So, it looks like I either have to do some serious rearranging within the design or structure of the site, or.......I don't know.

Anyone have any input for me?

-A Gerhart

[Brett_Tabke]

Back to the Fast comments loving the homepage - I think that is because of the ODP effect. They are intentionally cheating the odp urls higher. Most of those urls are to root index pages. They could be cross referencing with Yahoo or Looksmart spidered data too.

Agerhart, I've also recently heard good reviews of viso.

re: keywords, money.

It was recently pointed out to me, that when we refer to Keywords, we may not be describing the same thing. When I use it, I am referring to what the "real keywords" are for the page. Most often, those kw's will be the highest density keywords. That is regardless of what you put in the metatags.

What I do to determine what a pages keywords "really are", is a quick review that is now second nature. The way I pretty much approach it in my mind is to quantify the page and give it my own quick rank. I give it points based on where the keyword I am targeting exists on the page:

title: 10 points:
meta descrip: 5 points
large h1-h2 headings: 5 points
domain name: 3 points
bold or italic text: 2 points
url or filename: 2 points
beginning of a sentence 1.5 points
just usage in text: 1 point
meta keywords: 1 point
title attribute: 1 point (a href="..." title="a keyword here")
alt tag: .5 point

Just score each word on the page under that minialgo and that is a good idea of what the search engine is going to see. Then run it through a density checker and keep the density down under 10% for even the good keywords. Once you get that "mini algo" in your brain, you will start to construct pages with it and won't give it a second thought.

[agerhart]

Brett,
Thank you very much for the help, and I am sure, as always, I will put that algo to use. Two things:
1) The keywords I am referring to are not exactly the meta keywords, but more the keywords or phrases that we would like to target, or the type of phrase that we would like a user to type in for a search and find us. (possibly the same)
2) Where can I find a density checker?...or do you have to do the math yourself?

Thanks again for the help.
-A Gerhart

[agerhart]

I would like to apologize to all for not sometimes posting these questions or comments in the correct forum.....sometimes it gets too crazy in the office.

Anyway, I am wondering, when implementing themes, does it matter to the SE's if you use sub-domains or well named directories? Are they both weighed the same, or is one looked at with higher regard than the other?

Thanks,
-A Gerhart

[paynt]

I think it was oilman who suggested the internal linking was like a pyramid. I see it more as a web.
Internally, there are a few guidelines I follow. First is organization. I never take it more than three levels deep. I build my internal strength from three layers and I try to stay on task with them. I use canonicals, which I’ve described in detail at other times. These canonicals are simply a way for me to determine the most important theme for the string. If I find it takes more than three steps to find all information directly related to that theme, I would consider adding another canonical.

Along with the horizontal linking taking place for each canonical, there are related vertical linking that can happen, between the canonicals. Getting this just right takes a lot of thought. A trick I use is to open Windows Explorer and create a folder for the main theme site or company. Then I begin to create the canonicals and second and third level directories simply by creating and deleting folders. It’s very simple, visual, easy, and you don’t have to buy, install, or learn new software.

[1.2.com...]

1)Canonical – www or a themed keyword. You could combine 1 and 2 and use a separate domain.
2)Domain name
3)Most important support level for canonical
4)Supports the third level. Very often this is where you begin to see the need for a new canonical appearing.
5)Index, links, or a last level overflow of #4

[agerhart]

Paynt,
I am sorry it has taken me so long to respond.....rough morning. You have me a little bit confused with your explanation and use of canonicals (what are they).

I am working on a themed site right now......trying to. Could you explain that again for me.

-Thanks-
A Gerhart

[paynt]

agerhart,

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this. Check out this discussion and then let me know if there's anything further you'd like to know about canonicals.

[webmasterworld.com...]

[web_t]

WoW lots of exerts here, I am sure to get the answer to my questions.

What if all the web site linking to you are not based on the same theme. I mean, lets say one is selling video games, and other is selling notebooks and the third person is selling plastic bags, however they all are linking to you with your primary key phrase - what do you think? would this produce negative effects for your web site?

[agerhart]

When thinking themes, it is best to always stay with relevant content, which means that when the spider follows the link it is going to see that the content you are linking to is off topic.

I am inclined to think that this wouldn't make too much of a difference though. I am thinking that some of the theme based SE's and good directories like ODP may not like this too much.

I can't really give you a definitive answer, but instead my opinion. My opinion is that it is better to stay on theme, whether internally linking or externally linking.

-A Gerhart

[web_t]

agerhart

thank you for quick reply.

I guess I need to word my problem differently. How can I create 500 different web site based on same theme. Also, one thing that I am keeping in mind is all the web site will have unique content [except link pointing back to me!]. English is not my first language, and it would pratically kill me to *write/create* 500 pages based on same theme with unique content.

Please help!

[seth_wilde]

I wouldn't loose to much sleep over it web_t. Google will love the links no matter what site they're from (just get your key phrases in the link text if possible). Engines using theme technology like the term vector database will just filter out non theme links, which will neither help you nor harm you.

[web_t]

Shall I use just one main key phrase or all of them. Or Shall I use whole Description. Also, what is best preferred .htm or .html or .shtml extension. Also is there a minimum word count limit on a web page. [I am using minimun of 200 words/page]

[agerhart]

There is no limit to the amount of words that you have on a page, instead think of it in terms of keyword density.

Put your page through this :

here [searchengineworld.com]

[seth_wilde]

"Shall I use just one main key phrase or all of them"

Are yout talking text or incoming link text?

"preferred .htm or .html or .shtml extension"

I would say .htm or .html are probably preffered

"a minimum word count limit on a web page"

Agerhart is right, there is no limit. But some engines do seem to prefer different amounts (for instance AV seems to prefer smaller pages lately).

[web_t]

>>>>>Are yout talking text or incoming link text?<<<<<<<

I hate to say it, but I english is horrible. So let me try to give a example.

Suppose I create page and put the link like below:

Option 1
<A HREF="http://www.mydomain.com"> keyp hrase 1 </a>

<A HREF="http://www.mydomain.com"> keyp hrase 2 </a>

<A HREF="http://www.mydomain.com"> keyp hrase 3 </a>

Option 2
<A HREF="http://www.mydomain.com"> keyp hrase 1 </a>

<A HREF="http://www.mydomain.com"> keyp hrase 1 </a>

<A HREF="http://www.mydomain.com"> keyp hrase 1 </a>

Which one is better. Also, I am pointing all links to index.html page, is this ok, or shall I point links to other pages too?

>>>>>I would say .htm or .html are probably preffered<<<<<<<<

My logging program requires .shtml if I want to see spider hits. what do you recommand? is there any program available that will work with .htm, .html and show spider hits and other similar features?

[seth_wilde]

"So let me try to give a example"

Every situation is a little different, but from what you've said so far, I would probably go with option 1. You might also think about putting mulitple phrases in the same link text.

For example on all my clients sites I put a link like

<A HREF="http://www.mydomain.com"> Web Site Design and Intenet Marketing by Fakecompany.com </a>

This way google will boost me for "web site design", "web site marketing", and "internet marketing" all from the same link.

"is there any program available that will work with .htm"

I use webtrends

[EezyPeezy]

Hi All,

I am new to this site and have read this thread on themes with GREAT interest. I hope this thread is still alive. Many thanks to the people who have posted to it.

I am working on a new site of my own at the moment and would love to build it from the ground up as a themed site, however, everything I have read on the subject so far appears to point to the fact that "size matters". This particular site is pretty specialised and is only going to consist of 3 or 4 pages (excluding any doorway pages), at least in the beginning anyway.

My question is - am I wasting my time trying to develop such a small site as themed ??

Regards, Eezy

[paynt]

Hello EezyPeezy,

I think you are on the right track if you build your site around themes. This will lend structure and direction as you grow. Stay pure. Read the recip. links forum as well for additional information and Google and Alta Vista forums have much to offer on themes.

Goood luck

[mona]

EezyPeezy-

I would highly recommend making your site themed, even if it is small.
I have already had great results from a 7 page (doorway page) site.

I, too, have been reading this thread from the beginning with great interest. Unfortunately, I am not in the position to give any input on how sites are designed.

So, I asked if I could make a doorway page based on a theme.

It's only one main page, with six subpages all heavely themed and linked.

It' only been indexed in LookSmart, MSN, and Fast so far, but almost every KW is showing first page results.

BTW, I would also like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread.