Forum Moderators: martinibuster
I have started a new web site selling <snip keyword>.
The site makes use of two DHTML menus, one in the top bar, the other on the left.
The top menu contains links to all site features, while the menu on the left is organised hierarchical with product categories.
These menus have (say) over one hundred links, deeper into the site.
Will these be followed by a search engine?
Or do I have to dump these very practical menus in favour for classic "a href" coding... more in a link list or so?
Or should I use a different (normal) menu thing on the left for non-store pages?
Any help or pointers would be much appreciated.
Cheers,
Max
[edited by: paynt at 4:26 am (utc) on May 14, 2003]
[edit reason] snip keyword to keep the discussion general [/edit]
First of all, how are the links actually designed - are they plain links or javascript ones?
Secondly, are you using images or text for the menu links?
Thirdly, is your javascript on every page or called externally - and how "heavy" is it?
Fourthly, are you using a sitemap?
Lastly, are all these hundreds of links on every page?
These are all variables which will affect your rankings...
Sorry for being so unspecific... a link would have done the trick :)
I saw someone else saying "follow my profile" :)
> ... how are the links actually designed ...?
-- The menus are Milonic menus in JavaScript:
one .js per menu and one array/code .js
> ... are you using images or text for the menu links?
-- text
> is your javascript on every page or called externally
-- it is called externally with a script / src tags
> ... and how "heavy" is it?
-- growing every day (the left menu that is). The Top menu has 8KB, the left menu is 14KB.
> Fourthly, are you using a sitemap?
-- no, haven't figured out how to build one yet.
> Lastly, are all these hundreds of links on every page?
-- the script tags for the menus are includes for every page.
The site has a few (sort of) static pages for "About Us", Shipping, Payment, etc. The store is database driven and basically all (left) menu links are database queries, mostly pulling categories, E.g. ShopDisplayProducts.asp?id=261&cat=Widget
An example for the top menu: 0_AboutUs.asp, 0_Shipment.asp
> These are all variables which will affect your rankings...
-- I can hardly wait for an evaluation on this :)
Cheers,
Max
Maybe others want to jump in?
Internal/external js: external is better - it brings the page weight down and allows the spiders to get at your content sooner (see comment about "weight" in post above)
Images or text: text is better (anchor text of links)
Site-map: food for spiders
Hundreds of links on each page: advantage = hundreds of pages all pointing back to one another; disadvantages = lack of control over PR flow, lack of control over anchor text, lack of theming possibilities.
NB There is some debate about whether javascript links are being followed or not at the moment.
However this is a different area from normal links which are in a dhtml menu (in other words using javascript to show or hide content) which are followed at the moment.
There has also been some recent debate about Google and its ambitions and abilities to recognise hidden text, and whether this would have any effect on dhtml menus.
Finally, what happens to users who have javascript turned off in their browsers?
In general, and in answer to your question, I would say that a CSS-styled text menu is preferable to a dhtml menu, and they can be made to look extraordinarily impressive. But design and marketing also play a part in the decision and some don't like the idea of CSS links.
And, just in case no-one has done it yet, welcome to Webmasterworld!
Well, it looks I have to learn a bit more about this board :)
First I am not specific enough, then I am not theoretical enough :) ... I am getting there.
It is like talking about the green stuff I have got in the backyard, which needs to be cut on a regular basis depending on the weather. Why not call it grass? :)
I am not complaining, only amusing myself.
Thanks for your responses!
Being new to the ideas of promoting sites and making them as conform as possible, I got so blinded by these DHTML menus -- as in they are simply perfect -- for what I want to achieve.
At least the .js are external, but I never thought of users with disabled JAVA.
Here I am taking a radical stance, like some others do on this board in regard to IP blocking and keep out what's not worth (I am only allowing IPs based on GeoIP for AU, NZ, UK, US).
I simply don't care (though I am more than happy to listen to your advice and take it into consideration).
If a user has Java disabled, or Cookies disabled, then bad luck. The store won't work for them. 95% of browsers hitting my site are IE... I have tested others, such as Opera, and NS, they work too. But I feel this is a different topic. Nevertheless, I will 'test' on JAVA and count the disabled ones.
I was wondering, because I do not really understand what SEs do for or with a site, whether the menus I am using may not be spidered / /followed by a SE and will therefore affect my PR or any other variable inadvertently negative.
The left menu with the 100 links gets shown on every page. As the range gets bigger I am thinking of splitting it up in departments; with each department having its own left menu.
I am not trying to do something dodgy -- at least not knowingly -- the reason why I posted in the first place... dodgy in trying to trick the SEs to find different things than users and so forth.
The menus have the advantage of being a single file, hierarchical and can be updated in production... very convenient...
I am a fan of CSS and shall investigate, whether I can make the same menus in CSS, but will this not affect file size, as I will be adding 55KB for the menus per page?
Just figured out the site map... works! :)
But there is still heaps to learn with "theming"... etc.
Coming back to the link list (site map): Would it be better to split it up in major categories, and have content pages linking to these?
Again, I happy to receive your "rebuke" or any feedback :)
Thank you kindly,
Max
P.S. I have to say I am impressed about this board... I have stumbled across it a week ago or so... and spent three full days reading around... phew :)
That's fine, but not the grass at 47 Acacia Street, Midtown - because it would bore other folks who are interested in grass in general and also probably end up getting too specific.
>I am a fan of CSS and shall investigate, whether I can make the same menus in CSS, but will this not affect file size, as I will be adding 55KB for the menus per page?
Not if you use an external .css file. But then if you want fly-out menus you are probably forced into using js as well (there are some very nice light css/js ones out there).
>Coming back to the link list (site map): Would it be better to split it up in major categories, and have content pages linking to these?
It depends how far you want to go with the theming aspect and your navigation structure, I would say. If you are into theming you might link your "red widget" pages to each other and a "general red widget" intro page and then the "general <colour> widget" pages to your home page, for example.
NB Theming also relates to usability and usage of your site. Do your users find 100 links intimidating? Would they find it easier to move through a themed site?
... for sticking around.
I reckon I get the hang of it... but I see it as a disadvantage here not being able to talk about the real thing; it would save a lot of typing.
Anyway, the 100 links would be bad design and not only intimidating. The menus are hierarchical, and behave like the start button menu in Windows... in when you hit a category, you see the items or further groups flap open... and one can drill down further.
Summarising what I read so far: I should use CSS, still end up using Java... hmmm. I can't see myself starting all over. Apart from that, where are the links then? ... in the CSS or JS in your idea.
Can you really tell that this combination would be better understood by a SE?
Maybe I have to do much more research on this :)
Cheers,
Max
>Can you really tell that this combination would be better understood by a SE?
Of course it is up to you what you do with your website and only you can make the decision on whether changing something is worth it for you.
So if I were to summarise what I said re dhtml menus I would put it like this:
1) Text is preferable to images for links
2) CSS-styled-links are preferable to image links if you need a graphic look
4) Javascript and css files should be externalised for page weight considerations
5) Javascript should still be kept to a minimum conversant with simple navigation
6) Links on a page should be kept to a minimum conversant with usable navigation and theming (if used and if not, consideration should be given to theming areas of the site and navigation).
Those are a list of things I would think of at the start of a design, but they are obviously dependent on my/the client's wishes and on how competitive a target area might be.
The priorities might also change if I was taking over a site which was designed in the same way as yours. In that case one might look at the possible ROI of any changes one might make.
Finally, a personal view is that 100 links on a page are too overwhelming for the viewer, whether they are in fly-out submenus or not, or in two different navigation systems or not.
Your summary made it onto my wall, where the ToDos hang :)
Thanks for your effort and response. I need to further educate myself and will take your thoughts into consideration.
In regard to the hundred links... my Start menu has some 500 items, and I find my ways around quite easily. :)
The store uses a menu with 8 points, each shows 2 to 5, and these may show 2-5, which gives you the hundred.
Some visitors responded in favour for this menu, because it shows Widgets by brand, and another widgets by colour, another widgets by size... which was perceived as helpful... widgets by price is one I will add shortly...
... I understand that there is variety, and each kind with its own reasons :) but it has been an interesting post for me.
Thanks... Max
