Forum Moderators: martinibuster
I've heard that a link from e.g. a student's page on a university domain isn't worth much. Is there any truth to that? How would a SE discount such a link? I've seen plenty of such personal pages of professors on university domains, too (I assume they wouldn't be devalued as much). An SE might be able to use words such as Professor, PhD, etc. to discount them but are the algorithms really that sophisticated? Or is the "a link from a student's page on a university domain isn't worth as much" pure crap?
If those links don't send much or any traffic (because they're on a page with 10-15 links that no students bothers looking at), will they still be extremely helpful to boost rankings?
And...here's a beginner's question on internal linking: I assume the more clicks (on links) it takes to get from the university homepage to the page where the link is, the less link juice, one will get. However if it's a bit like this: university homepage --> Spanish Department --> Resources --> Useful Links ....will there still be a lot of link juice to be had? (I just checked two university websites that had 60,000 and 300,000 links pointing to them)
I've heard that a link from e.g. a student's page on a university domain isn't worth much. Is there any truth to that? How would a SE discount such a link?
Via the signals that the page sends. I would think it real easy to discount any page no matter if it is from a .edu, .com, whatever. The same overall concepts apply here. Student pages that are being abused for link purposes are FFAs and most likely treated as such.
I've seen plenty of such personal pages of professors on university domains, too (I assume they wouldn't be devalued as much).
Faculty pages are a different story. They are usually well linked to from the main site so they share the equity of the upper levels. Student pages are typically at lower levels and do not have that same equity sharing benefit.
If those links don't send much or any traffic (because they're on a page with 10-15 links that no students bothers looking at), will they still be extremely helpful to boost rankings?
This is why we have our strict guidelines in place. We would never allow a student or faculty member to have links on their pages like that, even behind login. We don't give them the ability to do that. Their CMS is fixed and they can only fill in the blanks. The rest is controlled through the systems and pre-moderation.
And...here's a beginner's question on internal linking: I assume the more clicks (on links) it takes to get from the university homepage to the page where the link is, the less link juice, one will get.
Click paths are extremely important.
Let me just say that I'm happy we've got our linking guidelines in place. We're protected from the above type of manipulation. I would hope that many other .edu and .gov sites do the same. Unfortunately there are quite a few who have been hacked, bought, you name it. I would really like to think that the SEs, or at least Google have got a handle on the bulk of the abuse. There might be some low lying fruit but it definitely isn't worth the level of effort being placed into it here.
Here's how you get quality links from .gov and .edu links. You have something of value that they want to link to. Pretty simple huh? You know what faculty like? Tools and tips that help make their lives easier as a Professor or Associate. Stuff they can use in their own teachings. You could always find a university that teaches your craft(s). If you can write about that craft extremely well and provide useful tools and tips, you've got a solid platform in place to attract the IBLs. You also need to have a sound plan for making contact with that university's faculty members and/or high level students.
You'll also find that you'll get links from areas that are behind login. I see spikes from visitors that are behind a login and I know that one of the staff members just did a presentation and included a link to a resource area on my site. I love those! Ya, what good is a link from behind a login? I'll leave that for you to think about.
Here are a couple of prior topics on this that provide additional information on the .edu and .gov TLDs. Enjoy!
Trusted TLDs - .EDU and .GOV - Trusted Top Level Domains
2006-04-22 - [webmasterworld.com...]
How Can I Book an .edu Domain
2008-12-30 - [webmasterworld.com...]
Personally? As an SEO, I would never, ever discuss .edu and .gov links in this way. This is the type of discussion that causes universities to lock down their website practices and do the right thing. The .gov is very restricted in what can be done. The .edu is less restrictive and EDUCAUSE is working to clean up the .edu TLD. Whatever low lying fruit is out there, won't be there for long.
I actually contacted them, because I was hoping I could get decent traffic (not just link juice) from those sites. However Ive thought about it more and have come to the realization, that I probably should into other areas, because Im big on not relying totally on search traffic and those pages probably wont send too many actual visitors.
However...then I read that post by wheel (and had already thought about that at the back of my mind) and am now wondering: Hey maybe because those sites I've been trying to get links from the fact that they're not going to send much traffic will not be too bad really, because those are the .edu (and even 1 .gov) links that SEOs are crazy about. So maybe theyll still help with rankings significantly.
We have very strict linking guidelines that are not altered in any way. I established those years ago after knowing what SEOs like to do with .edu stuff.
Below is the official Google commentary on edu and gov links from an online interview [groups.google.com] with Matt Cutts and his colleagues.
Q. Are .gov and .edu back links still considered more "link juice" than the common back link?
A. Matt Cutts: This is a common misconception--you don't get any PageRank boost from having an .edu link or .gov link automatically. Hah John, I beat you to it! If you get an .edu link and no one is linking to that .edu page, you're not going to get any PageRank at all because that .edu page doesn't have any PageRank.
JohnMu: We generally treat all links the same - be it from .gov or .edu or .info sites.
So, pageoneresults, you are correct. ;)
*I assume the SERP principle is the same as the PR principle.
I have done pretty much what you suggested (contacted professors - not students) about my website (that Im in the process of building) and asking them politely if they'd consider linking to my site once it's ready, and as my site is a perfect fit to some of those websites, some of them have already confirmed that they'll give me a link when I'm done (even one from a similar .gov site).
I wouldn't have suggested that method. I would have waited until the bait was ripe and ready for chumming. You don't send an under construction section to prospective partners.
I actually contacted them, because I was hoping I could get decent traffic (not just link juice) from those sites. However Ive thought about it more and have come to the realization, that I probably should into other areas, because Im big on not relying totally on search traffic and those pages probably wont send too many actual visitors.
Don't look at it as one or the other. There will be a blend of both. Take off the link blinders and think of it long term.
However... then I read that post by wheel (and had already thought about that at the back of my mind) and am now wondering: Hey maybe because those sites I've been trying to get links from the fact that they're not going to send much traffic will not be too bad really, because those are the .edu (and even 1 .gov) links that SEOs are crazy about. So maybe theyll still help with rankings significantly.
The terms links, SEO and .edu are oxymorons from my perspective. As soon as you bring SEO into the equation discussing .gov and .edu TLDs I feel you're viewing it from the wrong perspective. And you know what, you'll end up finding pages that fit your perspective too. All that work to find an FFA and really get no value out of it. Well, it was a learning experience, that is for sure.
No soup for you!
Heh, no links for you! ;)
Below is the official Google commentary on edu and gov links from an online interview with Matt Cutts and his colleagues.
Don't need to read the commentary. I've read the Patents Google own that discuss this in depth. You need to read those to read between the lines in public comments made by Google staff. They use 200% line height in most public comments about TLDs and other SEO stuff. Kudos for them! :)
I had to ask for some input (who would know better who to make an idea appeal to a certain group of people than that group of people themselves?) and thought I could combine that with asking for a future link.
A link from a crappy orphaned .edu page is just as worthless as a link from a crappy orphaned .com page.
I've thought about that one before, too (as probably most other people in this thread), but you say it like it's a fact, when it's not. It's an assumption and nothing else.
Do you have any evidence BradleyT or is it just an assumption?
I think much of what we discuss around here are assumptions based on research, testing, etc. Evidence is hard to come by in situations such as this. There are WAY TOO MANY factors at play here to try and unravel the mysteries behind the value of .edu and .gov links.
In most instances, you will find it difficult to get "highly valuable" links from these TLDs unless you have "highly valuable" content.
Working in the .edu space and having total control over that which I work in has allowed me to monitor this type of activity. You'd be surprised and I have empathy for all .gov and .edu Webmasters, they are under attack daily! Since I get these types of requests, I could share some rather interesting stories with you. Not one of them in 5+ years has ever received a link from us.
Most people are going to source their own references, especially in this space. Sure, you might be able to influence a few but you better have something worthy of attention. If not, then you can settle for whatever low lying fruit remains. Hurry though, I can smell it rotting as I type this. :)
Please, don't take any of this personally. If you really want to target high quality links in this sector, the "typical" link baiting, requests, etc. strategies may not be the best approach. If you are targeting faculty, you'll need to speak their lingo and also appeal to their senses. If you don't, you'll be more of an annoyance. That is if you can get to that person. They usually have some pretty good gatekeepers preceding them.
Student Pages? Stay away from those like the plague. If you find one that looks decent, look again. Turn off images, js, everything you can that makes your browser function. Hit Refresh and watch what happens. If nothing exciting, then you are probably safe. But, who knows for how long.
Student Pages are like Unpatched Windows Servers. I hate to use that as an analogy but it fits. :(
In regards to .gov links, those will rarely be seen. There are restrictions on who the .gov can link to. Outbound links for them are "endorsements" and it is a slippery slope for sure.
However what BradleyT says isn't a new theory. A question that, I think many SEOs have pondered before. Yet he makes it sound like it's a fact without presenting an evidence/research/observation for it.
I hope you don't take this personally BradleyT (and sorry if my last post sounded a bit exaggerated, I apologize) - it's not meant to be, I just dont like when people make assumptions/theories look like facts ;-).
..I must say Im a bit confused pageoneresults, because in that one link you gave us you say this:
"The .GOV TLD
I'm going to save you the time of researching the .gov restrictions and tell you that the .gov TLD is an authority and is Trusted out of the box. You are welcome to perform the hours of research that I did to effectively determine that."
That (and the rest of that thread) sounded a bit like you were pretty much convinced that the tld (.edu .gov) alone does make a difference...and now you're saying this:
"Evidence is hard to come by in situations such as this. There are WAY TOO MANY factors at play here to try and unravel the mysteries behind the value of .edu and .gov links. "
Does that mean you've thought about the issue some more and changed you mind a little bit since then (from thinking the tld alone does definitely make a difference to thinking it might, but one can't be sure?).
I'm not trying to nit-pick (exp?), but what you just said (typed ;)) kind of confused me after reading that thread you started and linked to in this post about the tld making a difference..? It sounded like you were at least convinced that the .gov tld does make a difference and now you're saying there are too many factors at work to tell?
I really hope this doesn't come off as nit-picking, but I'm extremely confused now to say the least lol.
As for the other stuff..I think you misunderstood me a little bit (maybe because I didnt give enough information). I never started with the goal of getting .edu and .gov links...I thought university pages were a great fit for my site, and think I have a great idea for "unique content" for my niche. I e-mailed a couple of professors and another education site about it asking them for input and if they like the idea and would consider linking to it when it's ready. Apparently they do like the idea, because around 10 of them have said they'll give me a link, including one education site which happens to be on a .gov domain. Yesterday, I received an e-mail reply by a professor I had e-mailed about my idea earlier who said he thought it was a "fantastic idea" and that he'll talk to the webmaster about it (of course, that one isn't a sure link, yet ,but I hope it demonstrates that I'm not trying to create some average or low-quality content and try to find sneaky ways to get on .edu and .gov domains....(it sounded a bit like that's what you thought I was doing?).
I also really didn't care about the .edu and .gov thing when I started searching those links out, but in my field there are two types of sites: 1. uncommercial sites by college professors (university pages or their private websites) or educational institutions (like the one .gov domain) and 2. commercial websites by people trying to sell products and plastering their sites with ads.
I thought I'd have a better shot with 1. and it seems to hold true ;-).
I really didnt take it personally, but feel like you totally misunderstand my intentions assuming I'm the same kind of SEO that e-mail you daily asking for links from the .edu-domains you manage to their low quality content ;-)
EDIT: I mentioned this earlier in this thread, I think but Ive come to realize that those university pages (which I called "1.") wont send me too much traffic (I had hoped they would), so now I'm thinking "but wait, those are .edu domains (even 1 .gov already)", so maybe despite the fact that they wont send too much traffic, they'll still help boost rankings significantly, because of the tld. If they do I'll luckily take them and dont think its unethical or anything.
Actually, I've come across some university websites (.edu's) in my niche that have a links page (without a ton of links) actually asking visitors to suggest useful links they've come across for the site....so maybe my niche is kind of an exception for this..
[edited by: Makaveli2007 at 2:47 pm (utc) on April 9, 2009]
Does that mean you've thought about the issue some more and changed your mind a little bit since then (from thinking the tld alone does definitely make a difference to thinking it might, but one can't be sure?).
No, I haven't changed my thoughts on that. If a new .edu launches and follows the correct path from day one, it will establish a higher level of trust and authority by default.
If a .edu and .com were to launch and they targeted the same audience, these days the .edu will most likely take precedence over the .com if all things are equal. Which they never are so trying to determine value is like researching black holes in space.
I say the .edu would take precedence by default because of who may link to that site by default. Today, you must be an accredited U.S. institution to receive the .edu TLD. What is Google's mission? To return relevant results. Usually, the .edu (or .gov) TLDs are a safe bet for authority purposes. And the SE's can surely see the inbound and outbound signals being sent. If those signals are being passed amongst certain nodes in a trusted network, I think that in itself is the main reason why these TLDs will be more powerful by default.
Let me put it another way. If you launch any site today and send the right signals, its like an open invitation to the right networks. If you send the wrong signals, you become part of those networks that surround the primary ones and never acquire the equity that they share amongst themselves. A good example would be faculty pages vs student pages. Faculty pages are at the core of the network. Student pages are usually buried somewhere within and don't share in the core equity.
Ya, I'm convinced that if I applied the same concepts to both .com and .edu out of the box, the .edu would take precedence and the .com would come in second. In either case, I'm not going to fuss over it. If you can acquire those types of high quality references KUDOS, as you most likely deserved them.
Do you have any evidence BradleyT or is it just an assumption?
I'm the admin/webmaster for two .edu sites.
We're a small private for profit university. We have a few locations throughout the US and each of those cities has a "big name" college or university that a good percentage of US citizens has heard of. So we don't get any kind of special treatment from the gov't and certainly don't get preferential media coverage.
Yet we've still managed to accumulate thousands of backlinks without ever soliciting for backlinks. We've gotten free links from .gov sites in cities where we have campuses. We've gotten links from "authority" city websites in those places. We've gotten links from other EDU sites that list colleges in their state or city.
So we've gotten a good amount of authority without ever trying. Now imagine a big name public school in your city or state. They're going to have way more links from government sites because the school is publicly funded. They're going to have more media mentions and articles written about them. They're also going to have more links from other .edus because of partnerships, research projects, and whatnot.
Just being a .edu you get tons of free backlinks without ever having to ask for them. Do you think USC has had to ask for any of their 130,000 backlinks to their homepage? Doubt it.
However my thought is that if a .com and a .edu had the exact same backlinks and if everything else were the same then there wouldn't be any .edu advantage.
Although there could be a slight "authority" bump because you're pretty much not going to find any untruthful information on a .edu or .gov site (with some exceptions of course).
[edited by: BradleyT at 5:54 pm (utc) on April 9, 2009]
Maybe links from .edu and .gov websites are discounted in a way or another, because G knows they'll get great links so easily?;-)
Further, it has also been mentioned many years ago that the PR a dot edu (or whatever) it passes will be deprecated if the context is irrelevant.
Nasty.
Stephan Spencer: . . . are social bookmark links given less weight than other back links - given how easy these services are to manipulate?
Matt Cutts: Typically, our policy is: a link is a link, is a link; wherever that link's worth is, that is the worth that we give it. Some people ask about links from DMOZ, links from .edu or links from .gov, and they say: "Isn't there some sort of boost? Isn't a link better if it comes from a .edu?" The short answer is: no, it is not. It is just .edu links tend to have higher PageRank, because more people link to .edu's or .gov's.
To the best of my knowledge, I do not think we have anything that says social bookmark links are given less weight. Certainly, some sites like del.icio.us and other people, may choose to put individual "nofollows" in and they may choose to take actions to try to prevent spam, but we do not typically say anything like: social bookmarking by itself - give less weight.
Stephan Spencer: OK. So, I guess, a follow on to that would be: a .edu and .gov link, and so forth, has, typically, a more pristine link neighborhood, so it is not just about the PageRank, right? The link neighborhood comes into play.
Matt Cutts: That is a little bit of a "secret sauce" question, so I am not going to go into how much we do trust that sort of stuff.
Stephan Spencer: OK. I am going to slap my wrist now. Ouch, ouch!
Matt Cutts: [laughing]
But, certainly, all of the things that have good qualities of a link from a .edu or a .gov site, as well as the fact that we hard-code and say: .edu or .gov links are good - and when there are good links, .edu links tend to be a little better on average; they tend to have a little higher PageRank, and they do have this sort of characteristic that we would trust a little more. There is nothing in the algorithm itself, though, that says: oh, .edu - give that link more weight.
Stephan Spencer: Yes. Which is what I would expect that SEOs would have already realized.
Matt Cutts: Well, you would be surprised how many are like: "Oh, I have to get .edu links because they are better." You can have a useless .edu link just like you can have a great .com link.
Stephan Spencer: Yeah. And for those of you who do not believe that, just do a search for "buy viagra" and look at all the .edus that come up, or "viagra site:edu".
Matt Cutts: [laughing]
This is why we have our strict guidelines in place. We would never allow a student or faculty member to have links on their pages like that, even behind login. We don't give them the ability to do that. Their CMS is fixed and they can only fill in the blanks. The rest is controlled through the systems and pre-moderation.
well, this was a few years back, but we had to hard code our student pages. i didn't even know how to write a href in '01, so i wouldn't know how to add a link on those pages anyway.
the one thing i would like to add, nonetheless, is that when students graduate or stop attending the schools where they had their pages, the pages disappear. i know some schools let you keep your .edu email, so i am not sure if that would be the same for their respective student pages.
