Forum Moderators: martinibuster
Sorry if topic has have been dealt with by many of you before but to me it is all new ground.
I am currently developing a site about widgets (thats what you say yes:) I bought an old domain for the site- registered over 4 years ago and am filling the site with content(daily updates).
My dilemma is that as part of the link building strategy I have just purchased a directory submission package from an 'ethical' SEO firm. The SEO firm will manually submit my site to 750 directories approx 100 every 10 over the next couple of months (ten unique tittle tags and ten unique descriptions). The directory submission process has started and I am currently at report 2 (submitted to 200 directories) the thing is my Google rankings haven't changed at all infact I think they may have dropped a little. Also I do have a number of other quality in bound links from other sites.
So my question is do get the SEO firm to stop the directory submission as it could be permanently hurting my site/ or continue as directory submission is not such a bad thing and I am getting inbound back links and it will pay off in the end when those links mature?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
There are enough PR 6+ directories to refute that.
You are right Martini..but having PR 6 doesn't indicate that the links responsible for the PR are from relevant authority sources/ pages because most likely....
It's probably fair to assume there's a lot of crap backlinks there.
Assuming I have an automobile website and I get:
1. A link from a real estate PR 8 page which has tons of high PR links pointing to it from real estate websites.
2. A link from a PR 4 page which has fewer number of links pointing to it from various automobile related webpages and blogs..
At any point of time..the link # 2 will give more benefit in terms of achieving ranks in Google..because:
1. Links pointing to the page are from automobile related web pages.
2. The anchors used while linking to the page should also be related to automobiles which gives added keyword value to the link from that page.
However, a link from just any PR 6 page is good for passing PR which will keep you out of the Google supplemental index.
You are right Martini..but having PR 6 doesn't indicate that the links responsible for the PR are from relevant authority sources/ pages because most likely....
YES! :)
Looking forward to more of your posts. ;)
1. How are you/they defining "directory"?
2. Once you/they agree on the definition how are you/they "qualifying" the directories to which your website will be submitted.
For example, a "directory" might be nothing more than a (small) list of sites on a highly authoritative website. That oftentimes smallish list IS that authority site's version of a topical directory. A link in "that directory" probably is the stuff of dreams for many a SEO. Does your submission company have a clue about how to approach the editor(s) of such a directory? Chances are, if they're offering to submit your site to 100s of directories, the answer is a resounding NO.
Another example: A geotargeted portal has a smallish directory of local businesses. A single lead - say, for a lawyer - could be gold. So a link in that non-traditional version of "a directory" might be worth the effort.
So, has the "directory submission service" really done their homework? Did you tell them your area of specialty and do they provide a list of specialty-focused directories? I suspect their definition of directory is a lazy one, at least in most cases. All quick and dirty.
Then there's the issue of qualifying a directory, that arises after you expand your thinking about "just what IS a directory". (Too many people likely think, when they think "directory", of a website that is built "around the directory" or "built AS a directory", instead of a website that incorporates a directory of some kind.)
Qualify? Quality.
Lastly, when it comes to directories of any merit, I tend to lean towards vertical specialization - not generalists. Google handles generalized search, as do the existing yellowpage sites, pretty well - so how is any generalized directory going to compete with such goliaths? Maybe a link, for free, in a general directory of some quality makes sense, but beyond that one has to weigh the cost and benefits if the general directory commands a fee.
my honest opinion, is first find out what "quality directories" mean. It (just opinion)should have these:
1. Preferably strict in link admissions, and details. Most likely Human reviews.
2. Has actual traffic to send your way and limits the amount of links per section/category
3. Has indexed pages, some PR (doesnt need to be high, as long as its not grey), and preferably as old in age as possible.
4. Has topical relevancy with your services/product/theme (optimum but not a MUST). Some are just generic directories.
The above mentioned criteria fit most directories that charge a fee, but (and speaking from experience) they are worth it.
If your "SEO" company is submitting to 700 + directories, in chunks (200 at a time), its leaving an OBVIOUS pattern that its being done for SEO purposes only. So your probably better off saving your money and investing in a few dozen QUALITY directories and sprinkling the submissions here and there. I would recommend over a few weeks, 2 or 3 here, 1 here, etc.
5. Does not ask for a reciprocal link.
6. Does not call itself a "link directory"
7. Each category includes appropriate sites. And only appropriate sites.
8. Each category has a consistent style, indicating a human review / editing process.
9. Any "about us" page does not mention SEO - except for seo niche directories, of course!
If you don't have content that fits the Social Media model, then don't waste your time.
If only people could understand this. It drives insane to have to constantly explain to people that if you have a leather tanning business (for example), you probably won't benefit from social media.
Just a little bit of logic goes a long way, but unfortunately online marketing lends itself to fads.
5. Does not ask for a reciprocal link.
Of course not.
Everyone wants to take something without giving something in return.
Who are these cheap webmasters? Ebenezer Link Scrooges?
6. Does not call itself a "link directory"
Of course, we wouldn't want something to be accurately named.
Let's call it PEZ instead.
Links, the best kind, come from those who admire what you've done. Begging/buying links is obvious. Whether good or bad I can't say, just can only repeat I've never done it. YMMV
Of course, we wouldn't want something to be accurately named.
Personally, I WOULD want it accurately named, so I can avoid it.
The best directories are those designed and built for people; they are the ones that, quite incidentally, are best for SEO - probably because the SEs respect something that has been built for people.
Most 'link directories' (I've been told not to say all, but it's close), especially the ones that add "search engine friendly" have been engineered for SEs, and really have no interest in people. Most SEs got wise to that in 2003, and so they are, in fact, search engine unfriendly.
"Link directories", by and large, exist in their tens of thousands, and are useless for human beings and useless for search engines. WOMBAT, as they used to say in Australia*
And, like it or not, the ones that ask for a reciprocal link are a risk to your site. Quality directories don't need to do that, they self promote by doing a good job.
IMHO, of course ;)
*Wombat - waste of money, brains and time.
[edited by: Quadrille at 8:30 am (utc) on Oct. 17, 2008]
limits the amount of links per section/category
This is an interesting point, because it may go some way to explain why directories are not very useful in oversaturated topics and industries. As an editor, there's a limit to how many red widget sites I can usefully include before it just becomes more of the same. So even if your site is as good as the others in the category, there's no point adding it if there are already enough good resources and yours doesn't add anything new or different.
Dmoz has a policy along those lines, I believe. I don't think there's any specific number of sites involved. But if your website is a me-too sort of thing, part of a current trend that's seeing a lot of growth or already in an overcrowded field, don't expect to get a lot of easy links from directories.
5. Does not ask for a reciprocal link.
Of course not. Everyone wants to take something without giving something in return. Who are these cheap webmasters? Ebenezer Link Scrooges?
Just spotted this; surely, they are GIVING without TAKING in return.
That's the kind of thing no 'professional SEO' does?
Sometimes amateurs get it right. ;)
Links, the best kind, come from those who admire what you've done.
I couldn't agree with you more.
Begging/buying links is obvious. Whether good or bad I can't say, just can only repeat I've never done it.
Your a very lucky man (or woman);P. Thing is, not everyone can get links pointing to them naturally, even if they deserve to. Begging people for links is not my thing, but I don't see nothing wrong with investing in a few quality directories that can bring you traffic, albeit very little, and will give you a few seo points while your doing it.
I can think of plenty of reasons why people would be motivated to tell you its not a good idea.
That reads a lot like you're saying the people who have posted are dealing in diversion, deception or lies.
Care to clarify the motivations and how they explain the answers?
Care to tell us what you say the real answers are and why so?
That reads a lot like you're saying the people who have posted are dealing in diversion, deception or lies.Care to clarify the motivations and how they explain the answers?
One motivation could be that some people have found it to work for them, producing good (if not better than good) ROI, and don't want to give the 'game' away. ;-)
That would be incorrect, they just killed junk directories involved in link selling schemes. Those of us with a squeaky clean nose are still doing quite well thanks! "
Incredibill, I agree with that completely - but we have enough real links going to our site that ALL directories could disappear tomorrow and we'd be fine. The person that started this post isn't in the same boat.
============
"The reason why dir submissions don't work is that the dirs themselves don't care about building links to their own websites/dirs.....There are enough PR 6+ directories to refute that. "
True...but they all simply bought links from 50 other PR 5 and PR6 useless directories to get their own PR up, then advertise it to the unsuspecting, so they could then do the same thing - turn around and sell (now) useless links...it was a nice game for them while it lasted.
Google did the right thing by dropping the PR to zero on those internal pages, and hopefully are ignoring the link completely.
=====
To the person that started this post...
(Not to sound like bragging, because I don't mean it to be) I've sold real products, and made sales every day for 10+ years...EVERY single day. So have many of the other experienced guys/gals you see on here.
Fads will come and go, tricks will come and go, but those that are doing the stuff in Brett's posts (from a few years back) will continue to do fine.
...so, to answer your original question of 'will it hurt me'....no, it probably won't hurt you...but you have a limited amount of time, and that time is better spent elsewhere.
I regularly submit non-paid links for client sites and while it takes a few months to notice an improvement I do indeed notice a change in ranking.
I just wish Google would come and say don't do this it will hurt your site!
Google can't give us too many details because then the black hats will just find another means to outmanipulate their search engine.
If the service is not too expensive, and you don't mind spending the money, it might be worth doing..who knows which links will count and which ones don't.
Only the few classic links selling companies are benefiting from Googles' outdated PR idea as well as seo and submission services.
Though some junk directoris show a 5 or 6 on their index pages, this is not reflected in deeper pages, and is not an indicator of quality.
Cheers all.
If you grouped all of the link pages and directories of the world together as a starting point here is how you would sift through them to find the hidden gems.
#1 - remove any directory/link page that accepts anyone who pays.
#2 - remove any directory/link page that has no human site evaluation.
#3 - remove any directory/link page that isn't related to your niche.
#4 - remove any directory/link page not based in your country/language.
For good measure then use your best judgment and eliminate any remaining directory/link pages that simply feel spam-like in nature or that don't seem to take pride in maintaining high quality.
You could also add:
#5 - remove any directory/link page that doesn't pass pagerank internally.
#6 - remove any directory/link page that doesn't have any real traffic.
but doing so would be ingoring the human factor, sometimes the age of a directory/link page results in either/both of those conditions but they are temporary.
Use YOUR best judgment, not an SEO firm submitting willy/nilly in bulk over a time span to the same places for every client. Do your homework, find the good ones for your site and reap the rewards. They ARE out there and many of them do not advertise, I believe you are doing yourself a disservice if you categorize them all as evil.
edit: I also believe you are who you link to online, in using your best judgment would you agree with the sites the directory has chosen? Do you link to some of the same sites yourself occasionally in reference? you should.
[edited by: JS_Harris at 11:01 am (utc) on Jan. 9, 2009]
Of course the best way to gain links is to provide someting that people want to link to without being asked, i.e., information that people in your market are concerned about.
For other directories, just make sure that it is relevant to your site. One way linking is good. I personally don;t think submission to many directories with one way backlink will affect your site. It's two way or reciprocal linking that will affect the most, since it gives the suggestion of manipulating the search engine.
Regards,
Jerry
[edited by: coopster at 3:26 pm (utc) on Jan. 15, 2009]
[edit reason] no signatures please TOS [webmasterworld.com] [/edit]
i evolved towards link building with social media and blog outreach instead and haven't had a need for directories; i can't speak for EVERY directory, but I personally have never gotten more traffic from a directory than the one visit from the editor that audited my site for approval - business and yahoo! and a small list of other directories that are supposedly "respected" by the search engines included.
blog outreach is great; even some new ones can get you a few hundred visits a day; just email them content that may be of interest to their audience.
btw: even if you continue working with directory submission packages, unless your paying pennies for each directory, you're probably paying too much to some seo firm.
Does anyone have the link to the relevant Google Patent bookmarked and can post it here?
Update: I just found part of one patent that was granted and appears to be relevant:
… A typical, “legitimate” document attracts back links slowly. A large spike in the quantity of back links may signal a topical phenomenon (e.g., the CDC web site may develop many links quickly after an outbreak, such as SARS), or signal attempts to spam a search engine (to obtain a higher ranking and, thus, better placement in search results) by exchanging links, purchasing links, or gaining links from documents without editorial discretion on making links.
P.S. nealrodriguez: Could you use uppercase where it's correct? You're the only one here who doesn't. I would love to read what you write, but it's awkward.
dir.yahoo.com
www.business.com
www.botw.org
www.dmoz.org (free)
Those are about $1k worth or directory listings with an annual fee. I'd had to keep doing it, if its not worth the money.
