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I tried Thunderbird, the same week, I uninstalled it after an hour. Importing my stuff from Outlook was mess.
I gave it another try on Monday, and I'm beginning to regret. This time, I figured out the import mechanism better. What should be simple is not.
1-When you have several accounts, it creates a virtual duplicate of all your imported messages in all accounts. That's not always practical and makes finding the right message difficult, especially when you organize all messages in folders.
2-Getting messages. In Outlook, clicking once gets you all messages for all accounts. In TB, you have to click each account, or enable periodic downloads to do it for you. Not practical at all.
3-The intro window - In Outlook, you can get rid of the annoying intro window. You can't in TB. It's always there. When I enter a mail program, I want to see my inbox, not some stupid page where I can pick an option. That's what interface buttons are for you know - pick an option...
4-Sending emails. Just like when you retrieve them, you have to click on each and every message before sending them. There doesn't seem to be a queue, for when you are offline. Not practical.
5-Duplication - a lot of extra empty folders are created, when you import your Outlook stuff. Deleting them is a mess. You're never sure that useless folders are deleted, because TB doesn't give clear visual cues of what it's doing. If you import or move around stuff, there's no way of knowing whether the task is completed or not. There's a progress bar that doesn't work properly.
6-No mass export - Sure you can import Outlook messages, but forget about going back. You can only export one message at a time. Impractical.
7-No property view for messages. I can't seem to find how or where to find all the source code under a message. How can you find out if it's spam or where the sender is sending from, underneath the fake email?
8-Screws up all my messages. Right now, several of my messages' sender info and message body are mixed up. Since there are no properties for messages, there's no easy way to tidy up everything.
9-Attachments don't always show with messages. The first time you import messages, those with attachements may not show their attachements. Going back a few times will eventually make them show up.
10-Scary login message from XP. It happenened once but could do so again. All 999+ messages imported from Outlook were marked as unread. Ok, nothing wrong with that. Howevwer, once, when I was choosing my user log in, as I was booting my computer, next to my user name, it said "999 messages unread." That scared the hell out of me. Outlook doesn't do that type of integration yet. I sure don't want to see this type of crap from an open source program. I don't like all this "integration." I don't want my email program to talk to my windows XP profile manager, beyond saying that there's a an account that was set up there.
Thunderbird has failed its test. I'm gonna keep it though. Why, well, I deleted all my Outlook messages, and my last back up is a month old. I had to delete the Outlook messages because, they were over one gigabyte. Having two gigabytes worth of messages in two similar programs was slowing my system. I'm not complaining, and I understand that using TB was risk I took. Can't blame them, even though their program is not safe.
I think I have finally found a use for that Gmail account. Once I clean up my messages, I'll upload everything there and be done with all these desktop-based email messengers.
For all it's worth, I think Outlook is still a superior program that was really designed for users, not for geeks. What geeks think is cool, is not what regular folks think is good. Thunderbird is a good example of that.
Any comments?
(No, I've not used Thunderbird ever.)
Why try to defend the undefendable? I too tried Thunderbird and it was a disappointment. It doesn't compare to outlook. I suppose if you are comparing it to outlook express, it might be ok.
What I meant to say was that you shouldn't drop software due to its flaws when the developers themselves acknowledge it isn't 100% done. If it doesn't meet your needs now, wait awhile and try again later.
Oh, and I cannot emphasize how cool IMAP is. I can check my mail from mutt, Apple's Mail.app and SquirrelMail and have access to everything in my mailboxes from every client. IMAP rocks.
1-When you have several accounts, it creates a virtual duplicate of all your imported messages in all accounts. That's not always practical and makes finding the right message difficult, especially when you organize all messages in folders.
That's being worked on, there's a fix here [mozilla.org]
I haven't tested that yet, same reason as you, my email is just too critical to trust to a developemental project, but this stuff will get done, the important problems anyway, things like exporting to other clients shouldn't be that big of an issue once the bugs are worked out of tbird I think.
<added>Just checked on tbird 0.7, it looks like you have to use the 'manage identities' to set multiple users on one account, same basic idea as OE basically, that would work fine if you start from scratch, don't know about importing. This thing is definitely not ready for prime time, I got a total failure on OE email import, plus it didn't ask me which user account of OE email I wanted to import, I think they've jumped the numbering up a bit too fast, I'd put it back down to around 0.5
4-Sending emails. Just like when you retrieve them, you have to click on each and every message before sending them. There doesn't seem to be a queue, for when you are offline. Not practical.
I just found the QuickReply extension which lets you queue messages.
Now if I could just figure out how to get it to check some folders and not others on the IMAP server when starting up (yeah, I know about the little checkboxes, it just doesn't seem to work for me).
I think for the time being I'm sticking with my 5-year old version of Eudora Pro, which works fine, although not without it's little annoyances.
[edit]Actually much better is the "Outbox" extension which lets you add a "send Later" button to Thunderbird[/edit]
Tom
That's why I have mixed feelings. I feel like it has great promise, but it's still got some annoying features. I think it's finally there where I can use it and there are some features I like and find the interface nicer than Eudora or Outlook, though I suppose that's just an aesthetic preference.
I find that I'm using it more and more and think that when it reaches the .8 or .9 version, like Firefox, it will be pretty well ironed out and I can see that in the future it will be the best option for me.
As the user base grows, I'm sure that like Firefox, many annoyances and missing features will get fixes in the form of extensions.
Tom
[edited by: tedster at 7:50 am (utc) on Sep. 27, 2004]
[edit reason] fix link [/edit]
3-The intro window - In Outlook, you can get rid of the annoying intro window. You can't in TB.
I've been using Tbird for quite a while on both Linux and Windows and am quite fond of it. Haven't used Outlook in a while, but was disappointed with its sluggishness and other things - e.g., difficulty of getting at mail headers. I'd been considering encouraging friends/acquaintances to switch to Tbird because of what I'd experienced in Outlook's security and the many notices on security in this department - probably won't now since so many of you have had problems, and I don't want to be called for support! Will wait for that for 1.0. On this end, haven't really had any problems, and have enjoyed the interface alot, very straight-forward. A computer-dummy client digged the easy server config and could actually figure that part out. He's back on outlook though, T-bird was a stopgap until I could fix outlook. An e-mail client is such an extensively used thing you get personal attachments to it, and it's only natural that you are frustrated when one interface doesn't work like the one you are accustomed to. That's why I advised the client to keep using outlook for the moment.
Incidentally, a good way to do a "mass export" from ThunderBird back to Outlook is to simply forward all the ThunderBird messages in each folder as attachments. Then, in Outlook, just drag and drop the attached messages into the proper folders. Worked great for me; I "imported" about 1800 messages from about 40 folders that way in about ten minutes. More work than a real export/import process, but on the whole not bad.
.8 worked, with one slight snag, I had to run the import emails twice, first time it said no folder existed to place import email in. Second run through worked pretty well, only glitch I see is that all emails with attachments are not marked as such, that may be a tbird setting however.
So it looks like that particular issue is very close to being worked out, import was very fast, 325 mB of emails in less than a minute, that's working on W2K/NT machines, though I'm told there may be an issue with win 98, we'll see.
2-Getting messages. In Outlook, clicking once gets you all messages for all accounts. In TB, you have to click each account, or enable periodic downloads to do it for you. Not practical at all.
It defaults to the current account, and for many (myself included), this is the way I would like it to run. I have a LOT of e-mail accounts, and downloading messages for each one takes too long to be practical for me. HOWEVER - if you want to download all messages, you just need to click on the arrow just to the right of "Get Mail" and click the first option: "Get All New Messages". If this is too tough for you just change the account settings... they should default to checking for new messages every 10 minutes.
3-The intro window - In Outlook, you can get rid of the annoying intro window. You can't in TB. It's always there. When I enter a mail program, I want to see my inbox, not some stupid page where I can pick an option. That's what interface buttons are for you know - pick an option...
Like mincklerstraat pointed out, it can be changes, and totally customized. You can write your own intro page. A coworker of mine had it pointed at a database driven page he set up that showed the people he was supposed to get back to that day. Can be handy if you're creative, but if you're not, it's easy enough to disable.
5-Duplication - a lot of extra empty folders are created, when you import your Outlook stuff. Deleting them is a mess. You're never sure that useless folders are deleted, because TB doesn't give clear visual cues of what it's doing. If you import or move around stuff, there's no way of knowing whether the task is completed or not. There's a progress bar that doesn't work properly.
I've always found Thunderbird's handling of folders to be better than Outlooks/OE's. Outlook always creates a standard set of folders which you can't disable (Inbox, Sent, Trash). In Thunderbird, you can hide any of these folders. I rarely have to go back peeking through my trash, and for certain accounts, I can do without my Sent folder. I prefer to hide these because even having as few as 3 accounts can require you to scroll the accounts pane (if you have your preview pane spanning the entire window bottom - another nice feature). Subscribing/unsubscribing to folders is as easy as right-clicking on an account folder > Subscribe. Then you check/uncheck the ones you want to see. Plus you can manage all your accounts from this window. Handy.
6-No mass export - Sure you can import Outlook messages, but forget about going back. You can only export one message at a time. Impractical.
You can export all your messages at once, but it's akin to digging into your profile folder on your hard drive and getting the Outlook/OE database file. I agree, this is too impractical for most users.
7-No property view for messages. I can't seem to find how or where to find all the source code under a message. How can you find out if it's spam or where the sender is sending from, underneath the fake email?
This is MUCH easier to do on Thunderbird than it is on Outlook.
To view source: "View > Message Source" (or CTRL+U)
To see headers: "View > Headers > All"
8-Screws up all my messages. Right now, several of my messages' sender info and message body are mixed up. Since there are no properties for messages, there's no easy way to tidy up everything.
Another import issue. If everyone just used IMAP (yay, IMAP!) you wouldn't have this problem.
9-Attachments don't always show with messages. The first time you import messages, those with attachements may not show their attachements. Going back a few times will eventually make them show up.
See #8.
So, basically, I think Thunderbird for it's minor annoyances beats out Outlook/OE - if not by virtue of it's built-in spam filter, or by virtue of the fact that it's not prey to a critical security bug every 3 months - there are enough redeeming features to make it worthwhile. Being able to mark a message as "read" or "deleted" by clicking icons next to a message is often handier than highlighting the message and clicking a couple times to do so as you would in Outlook/OE. Sorting by thread is great. Wide preview pane is great. Easy folder management is great.
If you're coming from a Microsoft background, it can take getting used to. Technological advancement is all about change, and sometimes you have to be willing to deal with the minor inconvenience of rethinking to get used to an otherwise superior product.
Since the .7 import failure was the only real showstopper for me, and that's now fixed, looks like it's time to make the switch. Receive all being that easy also solves one of the older issues.
I've been waiting several years for these type issues to be resolved, that's good enough for me, I'm switching completely, that makes zero ms apps I now need or will be using. Once I get my Yoper setup fully, even better, the switch to Linux is getting easier, last real obstruction is being able to run photoshop/fireworks/dreamweaver on wine, that's the only big packages I really need, and who knows, maybe the gimp is actually good enough, I just saw a sample site done with gimp generated graphics and it looked very very good.
9-Attachments don't always show with messages.
Hi Filipe,
Could you pls expand further on your answer to this one.
This is about my *only* remaining issue with TBird i.e. you have to click on a new message to realise it has an attachment - unlike Outlook.
I don't see this arrow anywhere.
<<<< if you want to download all messages, you just need to click on the arrow just to the right of "Get Mail" and click the first option: "Get All New Messages".
It shows up for me. I don't have any extensions that are enabling it. You don't see a little black arrow (triangle, really) pointing downard just pixels to the right of the "Get Mail" button?
As far as what I said about #9, this seems to be an import issue and really not an issue for mail received while you're already using Thunderbird. If it's just a legacy issue, I don't really have an answer to that one. There's always a little messiness in transition. Also, this can be avoided with an IMAP account since the messages are synchronized on the server rather than locally.
I could have sworn I'd put in .8, guess I didn't. Thanks for your help though.
The attachments not showing is pretty important though, that has to be fixed, I assume it will be by version 1.0, or probably 0.9
Error message is:
This folder is being processed. Please wait until processing is complete to get messages.
I click ok, but nothing happens, definitely a bug. If I send myself different messages to different email accounts I get maybe one of them after clicking ok. If I send multiple addresses to one field, to or cc, I get one, then maybe one more if I do it again.
I'm using my main inbox as the incoming folder for all accounts, 6 accounts. Oh well.
<added>
This is fixed, it wasn't the arrow button that you need to click, I set it up with one inbox for all accounts, then you just click the receive messages button and all the accounts download. The attachments icons only show up after you click on the email, that's not good at all, you need to see when an email has an attachment, obviously, since that's how viruses always get you.
I still get the error 'this folder is being processed if I try using the 'get all new messages' option, but it's not necessary, so I won't worry about it.
Some slightly unintuitive things, but over all who cares, if I can get off Outlook express once and for all that's the last major security hole in my system.
Problem Folders created and then deleted through my provider's web interface or via Eudora continue to show up in TB, but then you get an error when you check your mail.
Solution. I had to actually recreate the folders with the same name via Eudora or the Web interface, and then delete them via TB. That seemed to work for everyone. Create and delete with Eudora or the provider's interface, and TB has troubles.
Currently 0.8 has a documented bug [kb.mozillazine.org]
Note: there is a bug in Thunderbird version 0.8 which prevents the directory setting for Local Folders from being changed in this manner. This bug has apprently been fixed and should not affect subsequent versions.
The IMAP delete folders issue is discussed here [kb.mozillazine.org]
The local folder bug is resolved and will be in 0.9.
I'm switching now.
Now lets look at a few pluses, some already mentioned.
1 - huge, massive, the end of email viruses more or less:
view -> message body as -> plain text
no more html emails, this was the number one feature I was looking for in an email client, I never ever have to see one of those stupid html formatted emails in my life, no cute backgrounds, no images, nothing.
2. security option:
tools -> options -> advanced button
default setting:
block remote images
if sender in address book, accept.
3. The spam filter. Once you see a real spam filter in action you will never go back to junk like OE and Outlook.
The global inbox was implemented in 0.8
The global inbox location fix will be in 0.9, but all you have to do is move your folders once that's fixed, no biggy.
Bye bye MS, sleeping at the wheel isn't a good strategy.
Then of course, evolution is excellent if you want a more powerful, calendar type outlook app, linux only I believe... this year I think is the turning point, open source apps are starting to be better than ms stuff.
I've just found that once I gave it a chance, I liked it better than Eudora.
I never liked Outlook and absolutely hated Outlook Express, one of the few programs to actually manage to crash Win2K on a regular basis.
I also could never manage to get used to Opera mail, the Mozilla or Netscape clients, or Pegasus mail. PINE was okay.
Tom
Gone: Outlook express constant annoyances like having to do a 4 step process to read source code of suspect emails, tbird 1 click, ctrl+u
Note: for those reading this thread, wait until at least thunderbird .9, there is an unresolved bug with the get mail button, last night's install worked perfectly, today's it doesn't.
However, I've seen this development process with firebird/firefox and filezilla and I'm willing to go along with the growing pains. If you are having issues go to mozillazine thunderbird forums [forums.mozillazine.org] and give them input, it really helps the process.
<added> the latest nightly build [texturizer.net] has fixed the bug in the get mail [right arrow drop list] -> 'get all new messages', so that part works now, just the button seems to be broken. Good enough for me.
