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Why do people design for IE first? I don't get it!
I view the page in IE, but I sure don't use it as the corner stone of any development.
Personally, I also design using NN7 first, and it has always (with one exception) worked in IE first time.
I used to design using IE, and found that all versions of NN had serious problems showing the page. Running through a validation helped remove most of the errors, however, I rarely have a problem with validation when designing using NN7. If I had designed around NN7 first, I could have saved hours - it would have stopped repeated mistakes of code I thought was valid, but in fact, was not.
The tests I usually do include:
1) NN7 (designed around)
2) IE6 (hardly ever had a problem if works in NN7)
3) Opera 6 (had some problems, with JavaScript)
4) Validation
5) NN4 (very rarely check - and only to make sure that text appears and links are clickable - if the page looks bad it does not matter as long as it functions)
As a Netscape user, I've had it up to here with lazy people that write sloppy code. Because of that, I want to make sure that as many people as possible are able to view my site. It doesn't take long for me to test in all of those browsers -- Everytime I redesign, I test once. Most of my pages are the same, so I'll generally only test the first page.
The only reason I test in older browsers is to make sure that my site sucessfully degrades gracefully.
Although I'm certain that you'll disagree, I always stand by this statement (that I've mentioned previouslly on this forum):
Every site in the world displays correctly in Netscape 7.1.
Because you're less worried about cross-browser compatibility, and you described Netscape and Opera as "fringe" browsers.
MS Internet Explorer 91.1 %
Netscape No 1719 3.3 %
Opera No 1117 2.1 %
i'm going to worry about that 91.1% first and fore most. the others are gravy. i've also got 0.1% WebTV. i've seen what MSN TV browsers do to web pages. should i change everything around just to accommodate that 0.1%? kinda reminds me of the cheeseburger-pepsi skit on SNL.
but i do see this degenerating into another browser crusade again. bottom line --it doesn't matter what browser you build and initially test your pages in. you write good code and/or know the limitations of what HTML and CSS can/will do --your page will display gracefully across all browsers.
Why do I get this impression? Because you're less worried about cross-browser compatibility, and you described Netscape and Opera as "fringe" browsers.
If you look at the stats you will see that Netscape, Opera, and the rest are fringe browsers. Just because you use one of the alternatives does not make it a standard product.
Don't assume that I am less worried about cross-browser compatibility, just becuase you are fanatical about it.
What browser I use is irrelevant to the discussion. What 97% of my paying customers use, is.
And the 3% that use alternative browsers are very happy. And the people who can't use my program because of browser compatibility go elsewhere. Maybe to you. I really don't care.
What do people actually mean when they say that they "design for IE"?What is it that they do (or do not do) that makes them say that they designed especially for IE.
One way i "design for IE" is, i make extensive use of the iframe feature to load my javascripts into the page (viewers can't view my JS source code in the iframe). I design so NN and other browsers will see a little less content (the iframe doesn't load) but it still looks good. View my pages with IE and you get access to a lot more features.
With IE representing more than 97% of my visitors browser of choice it's just not worth coding for the others.
:)
With IE representing more than 97% of my visitors browser of choice it's just not worth coding for the others.
What DaScribbler is saying is that if you code "for" Opera or Mozilla, it takes virtually the same amount of time that it takes to code for IE with the added benefit that you reach more people. The only reason it would take longer is if you write bad code.
Jennifer
What DaScribbler is saying is that if you code "for" Opera or Mozilla, it takes virtually the same amount of time that it takes to code for IE with the added benefit that you reach more people. The only reason it would take longer is if you write bad code.
Makes sense. I guess i do what i do (using iframes to hide my code) because it just drives me crazy when people steal my code.
Kid
For example, if you have 96% of page views being IE users, then I suggest you have a problem with your site. There is more than a 4% market share of alternative browsers. People assume that their statistics are correct but it may not be the case.
For example, I visit your home page (for simplicity sake) you get one page view. I use Netscape and it just does not display correctly. I hit the back button. 1 visitor, 1 page view.
My friend uses IE and also goes to your site. He views 24 pages and then after he has found everything he came for he leaves, satisfied. 1 visitor, 24 page views.
Your statistics:
4% using Netscape
96% using Internet Explorer
Your realities:
50% using Netscape
50% using Internet Explorer
So before quoting your statistics, please remember that if your site does not function in another browser, you cannot use the statistic of that browser in terms of page views, but you MUST count the percentage of VISITORS using browsers. Many statistic packages count page views and as seen above, the figures can be out by a lot.
I have decided not to buy a product from a supplier recently because their site does not work in Netscape. I found a site that does work, it is a fantastic site, and I will be ordering from them soon. A £27000 sale they'll have this week, just for supporting Netscape.
My sales shot up after changing/tweaking my site to be validated code and Netscape compliant. You can shoot up by 5 or 6 times the number of alternative browser users. Think about this too:
A Netscape user goes to 2 of your competitors but cannot get the information they want or place an order. Then, they come to you and they order. They may pay more, but they are happy that it has worked. If every alternative browser user does this, you orders will not increase by 10% (if that's the real stat) but will increase by 30%. And if it really was just 4%, surely a 12% increase in sales overnight would be almost unheard of for most businesses.
In the UK from January, you can be taken to court for the Disability Discrimination Act if your site does not comply. The disabled person may HAVE to use Netscape 4. If it is not functional in Netscape 4, you are leaving yourself open to a lawsuit. By optimising or writing code only for Internet Explorer, you really are leaving yourself open for serious complaints when the law becomes applicable. This has already happened in Australia and court cases by web designers have been lost because of their narrow-mindedness. Not everyone is the same as you or I and because of the nature of the web we should be catering for everyone, or at least as many as possible.
All I can say (without repeating exactly what you said) is "ditto"!
Except for the part about Netscape 4. There's nothing forcing anyone to use Netscape 4! If that's the type of browser they are forced to use, Firebird works just as well! Let's not take it too far by saying that NN4 always has to be supported.NN4, IE4, and the likes of them are legacy browsers. There's nothing "usable" about them. So, saying that a person with disabilities HAS to use NN4, that's simply a claim without substance.
One way i "design for IE" is, i make extensive use of the iframe feature to load my javascripts into the page (viewers can't view my JS source code in the iframe). I design so NN and other browsers will see a little less content (the iframe doesn't load) but it still looks good. View my pages with IE and you get access to a lot more features.With IE representing more than 97% of my visitors browser of choice it's just not worth coding for the others.
Btw, I'm not sure if this is deliberate, but the text on microsoft.com is tiny in Netscape 4 and IE 3.
> tiny text on M$.com
...that's because NN4 and IE3 is rendering the page wrong.
You have to be very careful with statistics. Very.
actually PCInk ... i am. i can also browse page logs like these and see exactly what browser is being reported:
50.223.186.195.dial.bluewin.ch - Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1)
d207.181.44.20.nwcc.cc.ms.us - Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; FunWebProducts)
- Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1)
sud-1-82-67-112-14.fbx.proxad.net - Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; FREE; FunWebProducts)
p508D74F9.dip.t-dialin.net - Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1)
since this has digressed into another "browser evangelical session", y`all seem to have overlooked a couple of facts: yes --"we" can load up any browser we want and tout it's virtues over another. but what does corporate america for the most part use? windows and IE. what do "mom and pop" middle america use? they use "the internet". they probably couldn't even tell you what "browser" they're actually using. sorry all you netscape v4.7x snobs and you opera v7.2x elitists --THAT is my target audience.
and for the record --i'm not an IE snob. i happen to have NN v4.7x, v4.8x, IE v4, v5.01, v5.5, v6.0x, mozilla v1.4 & v1.6, and a couple versions of opera floating around to test/tweak/chase quirks with. and if i could manage my bookmarks in mozilla the way i can in IE, i'd probably use that on a daily basis ...
We are not arguing over which is the best browser to use, but which is the best to use for designing a site. The best (IMHO) is the strictest browser, thus forcing you into standard compliant code.
The strictest of the three most popular would generally be regarded as Opera followed by Netscape followed by Internet Explorer.
The stricter the code you write, the more likely people can view it (no matter what browser). Unfortunately, Internet Explorer is TOO forgiving, which is good for amateur sites because they are easy to make (and good for those people who save MS Word documents as HTML!), but bad for professional designers who may find it harder to spot non-compliant code and even basic coding errors.
I find it easiest to design using a browser that highlights the problems, either that or use a validation program.
BergtheRed, the logs you have just shown is exactly what I stated earlier - they are page views. Using the example given, the log would have one of my NS7 page views and 24 of my friends IE page views.
We are not stating that you should have a site that works with NS/Opera but not with IE. This is not what is being stated. What we are stating is if you test in a browser that highlights all the errors it can be better for you. For example, Internet Explorer may be a bit lax on a particular rule, let's say it is missing </table> tag for example. You may find that Microsoft close this loophole in their browser and suddenly sites that worked perfectly in IE, no longer appear correct.
This is not aimed squarly at you, but surely you can understand why we all want standard-compliant code, can't you? We are simply stating that it is easier to use a stricter browser to achieve that goal - mistakes are visible a long time before you perform a validation check.
If your site doesn't work well with Mozilla or Opera, you never will see much traffic from those browsers, because those browsers will not return to your site. After all, who wants to visit a site that appears Broken. If your site did play well with others, then you'd see others more often.
IE is the defacto standard. There is no right or wrong way to render (it's just opinion)
Why do people blame the non-IE browser? Either they don't know any better, or they think other browsers should conform to IE's "standards" just because it's the "defacto standard."
I wouldn't have a problem with this whole thing if it weren't for the fact that it hinders the rest of us. How can you not be in favor of a single unified standard that lets you code without worrying about browser quirks.
I'm all in favor of "innovations", even new tags and properties in browsers. It's one of the things that helps the web grow. But I don't think a browser maker has any business adding that sort of stuff if they don't even meet the baseline.
Aaaarrrggghhhhhh! How many times has this got to be repeated? If you write valid, well-formed code then it will work in ANY browser.
Why write something that just about works in the current version of IE and neglect everything else? That makes no sense.
IE is the defacto standard. There is no right or wrong way to render (it's just opinion)
Since when is IE the standard? Only people who buy into MS marketing hype accept this.
When you use IE as your ultimate measuring stick, you limit yourself immensly. It is far easier to develop standards compliant pages, and make minor tweaks for IE, than to develop a page for IE only.
But (and this may offend some, but I stick to my guns) this "IE only" mindset is nothing but laziness. You may try to hide behind vague stats about user preference, but in the end it has nothing to do with that. If you can't make standards compliant Web pages it is because you're too lazy, or too uneducated in what the standards really are.
That IE is so extremely forgiving in its rendering doesn't mean that it can't render standards compliant code. IE can render pages just fine, as long as you realize its limitations. I develop pages for any browser but IE. Still, I think that IE renders my pages best.
IE is not the defacto standard of anything. It's foolish to think that. Someone made a good point earlier about what the stats really tell you - most people using a non-IE browser click their back button to escape from your badly formatted page.
What has happened to the pride of Web development? There used to be a time when people would take pride in their work, a time when people really knew what it meant to be a "Web designer".
Sheesh, even my grandma can make a page look good in IE!
As I have already stated, while a more error tolerant browser is arguably better for the end user, it stinks on the design and development side of the equation. You want to use a browser that encourages you to produces less error prone markup.
Since when is IE the standard?
IE is not the defacto standard of anything.
Look up the word "de facto". IE is the de facto standard. By definition.
Why write something that just about works in the current version of IE and neglect everything else?
If you can't make standards compliant Web pages it is because you're too lazy, or too uneducated in what the standards really are.
Standards are simply an agreement about how something should be done. That's ALL they are. You can agree or not. There is nothing wrong or right about standards, the agreeing or the disagreeing, the following or the not following.
What has happened to the pride of Web development? There used to be a time when people would take pride in their work, a time when people really knew what it meant to be a "Web designer".
Why is it that you seem to believe that people who do not agree with you have no pride in their work? When I was a kid, erector sets were very common and it was a thing of pride to build the best machine with the pieces. I decided I was not going to be limited to that "standard" and mixed in parts I found everywhere - motors, belts, screws, bolts and whatever. I had just as much pride in my "work" as the other kids - I just was not limited by "standards".
A standard is an artifical limit, an arbitrary limitation on creativity. Who cares what the standard is? Just create something that works and meets the requirements.
A "web designer" makes web sites that meet the requirements of the business (or hobby or whatever). That's all a web designer is supposed to do. If the audience is defined as "IE only" by the business (as is often the case for an intranet) then it's not only acceptable for the code to be IE only, it's actually a complete waste of time and resources to make it anything else.
It's truly amazing! Why would you settle for 95% (though many stats agree that IE has no more than 80% market share)
Depends on the business requirements.
this "IE only" mindset is nothing but laziness.
I assert that the "standards only" mindset is nothing but an attempt to force people into a sameness, a blandness, a pasty white soya drink as tasteless as chalk.
What makes you think that iframes don't work in Netscape and other non-IE browsers? Iframes have been supported by Netscape since version 6.0, which was released over 3 years ago.
That's good then, i didn't know that. I stopped downloading NN at about version 4.x because making layers work similarly in IE and NN just became too much work. I just display a non-layer page for NN.
Kid
standard is an artifical limit, an arbitrary limitation on creativity...I assert that the "standards only" mindset is nothing but an attempt to force people into a sameness, a blandness, a pasty white soya drink as tasteless as chalk.
In fact I've discarded many really amazing looking designs because I couldn't get them to work in IE. The W3C's recommendations are the last thing that get in the way of my creativity.
