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hgroup removed from the HTML5 specification

     

Fotiman

4:30 pm on Apr 12, 2013 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member fotiman is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month




For now browsers wonít remove support for hgroup but itís likely that they will do so in the future.

[iandevlin.com...]

coopster

2:01 pm on Jun 11, 2013 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator coopster is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



I don't think that its removal is a bad thing as it didn't really appear to have much use.


Personally, I couldn't agree more.

g1smd

7:09 pm on Jun 14, 2013 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member g1smd is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



So here we have a fluid HTML spec always called HTML 5.

My mind is boggled.

ergophobe

5:34 pm on Jun 20, 2013 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator ergophobe is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



A useless element, but I wonder if a browser "removes" support and I have CSS that depends on hgroup, what happens?

Will this be like I have to do with IE8 and run some javascript to make it aware of elements? I presume I would (and could) if I needed this compatibility.

ergophobe

5:41 pm on Jun 20, 2013 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator ergophobe is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



PS

Its only stated reason for being in HTML is to support a non essential case in an algorithm that is not implemented in any browser
src: [lists.w3.org...]


So since as of March 2013 it was not implemented in any browser, what harm in removing from the spec in April 2013? Because of the millions of webpages that implemented hgroup in anticipation of browser support?

I think this actually illustrates the utility of the Living Standard [webmasterworld.com] approach rather than the pitfall. Rather than waiting for three years while the W3C nabbles about behind closed doors to issue the next version of the spec, while in the meantime browser manufacturers are implementing a useless tag, the spec can see the situation in the real world and adapt based on what actually makes sense.

mattur

6:45 pm on Jun 20, 2013 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



It's only removed from the W3C HTML5 spec, and that's because most people have given up on participating in the HTMLWG because it's completely dysfunctional.

<hgroup> is still in the HTML Living Standard maintained by WHATWG, it's used on over 100,000,000 pages including sites like Apple, Adobe, Economist, Wordpress etc. It will continue working :)

DrDoc

7:35 pm on Jun 20, 2013 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member drdoc is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



... and it is implemented and supported in all major browsers:
[w3schools.com...]

But I agree it isn't needed. It adds no value that cannot be achieved with a div or similar. The h2 is already, by definition, a subheader of the nearest prior h1.

mattur

8:00 pm on Jun 20, 2013 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



It just provides more a specific hook for marking up this pattern:

<h1>Heading</h1>
<h2>Subheading</h2>

<p>

<h2>Heading level 2</h2>

<p>

It's useful for styling (e.g. margin:0 between the h1 and h2 when used as a heading with subheading) and for generating a document outline.

ergophobe

8:24 pm on Jun 20, 2013 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator ergophobe is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



>> it is implemented and supported in all major browsers
>> 100,000,000 pages

Sorry - I didn't check up on that comment!

>>useful for styline
more useful than

h1 + h2 {}

DrDoc

8:48 pm on Jun 20, 2013 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member drdoc is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



Let's also not confuse things ...

<h1>Heading</h1>
<h2>Subheading</h2>
<p></p>
<h2>Subheading</h2> <-- also "subheading", not simply "some other header"
<p></p>


If you want a tagline or similar to your header, and are using h2 because it's visually different, then you are using it wrong. h1 and h2 are semantically different.

I feel that we are getting into the same ol' "div vs table" argument here, where people use elements to provide a visual difference, rather than considering what's proper.

Too many times have I seen:
<h1>Name</h1>
<h2>Tagline</h2>

... when people actually meant:
<h1>Name <span>Tagline</span></h1>

lucy24

9:49 pm on Jun 20, 2013 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member lucy24 is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time Top Contributors Of The Month



Every time I see <hgroup> I initially take it to mean <h\d> short for
h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6
and am then disappointed to (re)learn it isn't anything of the sort :(

:: trying not to think about all the e-books I made in past years using numbered headings for style on the title page ::

mattur

10:37 pm on Jun 20, 2013 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



If you want a tagline or similar to your header, and are using h2 because it's visually different, then you are using it wrong. h1 and h2 are semantically different.

Note the W3C currently use this pattern on all their specs :)

eg: [w3.org...]

mattur

10:46 pm on Jun 20, 2013 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



more useful than h1 + h2 {}

Yes, because you can then style the h1 when it's grouped with an h2, style as a single block, etc.

ergophobe

2:46 am on Jun 21, 2013 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator ergophobe is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



>>then style the h1 when it's grouped with an h2

Ah yes... in absence of a :parent pseudo selector

DrDoc

4:31 pm on Jun 21, 2013 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member drdoc is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



I will agree that you can target the h1, but that can already be achieved via classes (or a div wrapper or similar), so the hgroup still does not really contribute anything new.

As for W3C using that pattern -- they certainly didn't on the page you linked. They used the h1 as the main header, and all h2's as section headers.

drhowarddrfine

5:30 pm on Jun 22, 2013 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



I use hgroup on a page on one of my customer's sites and it worked very well for the page outline. I wish I could recall the details but I found it handy at the time.
 

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