Are tables a thing of the past?

[goneriding]

It has been a while since I have designed a site from scratch. I have noticed that several folks are using css for designing their sites and that tables are out due to code bloating? Is this correct? Is CSS an easy thing to learn/use? Any other up to date tips you can give would be great. Prior to accepting a ft perm position with a local company, I was working from home doing website marketing and ad design. I am in the process of redesigning the companies website (designed in Photoshop, sliced and exported into Dreamweaver).

Thank you very much for your help.

[Robin_reala]

I have noticed that several folks are using css for designing their sites and that tables are out due to code bloating?

They're out for layout, but not for tabular data - i.e. data that is referenced by a column and a row.

Is CSS an easy thing to learn/use?

CSS - yes. Browser implementation inconsistencies - no. But that's what the CSS forum is here for.

Any other up to date tips you can give would be great.

Pick up a book that's been published this year on CSS and read it thoroughly. Have a walk through the CSS Zen Garden. Google stuff. Ask as many questions here as you like. Learn to hand code as much as possible (it's easier to debug if you're closer to the code). Code to a strict doctype (probably HTML 4.01 strict) and validate as you go. Test during development in the most standards compliant browser you can find (I use Firefox but Opera or Safari are also good) then fix it in IE later. Keep on asking questions.

The biggest difficulty for you is going to be getting out of the 'tables' mindset. CSS layout requires a subtly different way of looking at the page and deciding how to break it down. The only real way of getting into the new mindset is practise practise practise. Do small projects to start yourself off then work your way up.

[RonPK]

The easiest to achieve a classic grid, like header - 3 columns - footer, is by using tables. It is a rock solid method that works in all browsers.

Please note that I don't want to start another thread on "tables vs. CSS". I just feel that sometimes it needs to be said that tables are not necessarily a bad choice.

Also, tables and CSS are not mutually exclusive. Table elements can be styled through CSS just like any other page element.

[rocknbil]

I agree, tables have not completely left the house. They are deprecated, which in spite of the pure definition means to avoid them for presentation wherever possible. Situations still exist that make them the easiest method of getting through the day.

[goneriding]

Thanks for the great information. I have found zen garden and molly.com which what led me to start this thread. I have to finish this site as quickly as possible - can I use the tables for now and slowly convert to CSS as I go along?

[Robin_reala]

If you're pressed for time then go with table layout but use CSS for as much as possible. There is a learning curve and although I do believe it's best to jump in head first, in the middle of a project isn't the best time. As for converting an existing site from table layout to CSS layout then it's probably not worth it - it's a fairly large job and a simple table layout won't be too bad.

[kiwibrit]

I did convert our company site from tables to css. It was quite a job, even for a modestly-sized site. I started by converting the main content area to CSS, before switching the rest. I think it was worth the pain. The site appearance is easier to update, and it is more accessible - in part because I reviewed the site's semantics at the same time.

[Candid India]

In tune with the above responses I too agree with the use of table less designs. Tables are definitely a thing of past because today we talk more about Web 2.0 styles.

[Robin_reala]

Kiwibrit: that's my point. There's a lot of work, and it's essentially a rebuild.

[kiwibrit]

Robin_reala, yup.

[benihana]

Tables are definitely a thing of past because today we talk more about Web 2.0 styles.

please expand on this....

[Fotiman]

You might also look into the Yahoo! UI Library (YUI):
[developer.yahoo.com...]

There's a LOT of really neat and useful things there, including a "Grids" package which includes some templates for laying out your page in a grid-like pattern (similar to how you might plan a table based layout):
[developer.yahoo.com...]

Very easy to implement and doesn't use tables for layout.

[Fotiman]

Web 2.0
[oreillynet.com...]

[mcjohnson]

I must admit I am in love with CSS for the power and flexibility. That said, I do find that a well-placed table serves a need in some occasions. But in general, CSS is the way to go.

[mandarseo]

I do agree that W3C has deprecated many tags to promote CSS but tables are here to stay (not for data presentation but for grid purpose).

[benihana]

Fontiman - im well aware of css layouts - i use them all the time, and of web two-point-oh.

They dont make tables a thing of the past.

Tabular data = use a table.

[Fotiman]

I agree... I wasn't implying tables were a thing of the past. Tabular data should use tables. Tables for layout... probably not a good idea in most cases.

[Jim Catanich]

There is also a very good reason to CSS over Tables, in SEO, you want to present to the SEs content in a specific order. CSS allows you to do this.

But to redesign a complete site from tables to CSS is a waist of time and money.

I apply CSS to all "landing pages" or "keyword ranking" pages because I want to control the exact location (order) of the string of text being presented. Example: use a spider simulator to look at the text that is returned. To move the text around you will have to play with colspan and rowspan.

But by moving the <div up or down in the code, you can change the order of presentation. Run the spider simulator again.

This is why all the SEO firm are pushing CSS. A CSS designed page will usually rank higher that a "table" page if every thing else is equal. It is not that CSS is better, it just allows for SEO tuning the order of content presentation.

I recommend that you use CSS on all highly competitive keyword pages. But don't redesign a site. You will have plenty of time on other projects to do it. And CSS does not add or subtract from PR.

This is a great example of where a benchmark would be very educational.

Jim Catanich