Mac Testing Revisited

Need to test a new design

[MatthewHSE]

I know there have been threads in the past about PC users testing sites on a Mac. Essentially it seems to come down to not being able to do it "right" without actually having a Mac.

Unfortunately, I can't afford to buy another computer right now, not even a MacMini (though I'd love one). None of my friends have Macs, so I'm going to be stuck using some sort of simulator. Trouble is I can't seem to find a good one. I know they exist but I can't remember the names. If anyone could point me in the right direction I'd really appreciate it.

Alternatively, some of you Mac users could sticky me for a URL and let me know how it looks... ;)

[Robin_reala]

Sure, send one over to me. I can test in Safari 2.0, afraid I don't have any earlier versions. If really needed I can grab a copy of IE5/Mac but I don't have one installed currently.

[tedster]

One thing I've done is find a local copy shop or Internet cafe that offers time on a Mac by the hour. When I begin with good standard code that's working cross-browser on a PC, it usually doesn't take long to spot any areas that need attention on a Mac.

[Robin_reala]

Alternatively you could pick up a cheapish copy of Panther from eBay or wherever (seems to go for about £30 these days), and use PearPC [pearpc.sourceforge.net] to emulate a Mac on your PC. OK, so it's slow, but at least it'll run.

[2by4]

robin, does that actually work? That sounds like a good solution.

Of course, the easiest is to download the latest kde based linux livecd, burn it, then boot into it, check the sites with konqueror, which is close enough I think for most stuff.

[Robin_reala]

No idea - I've never tried it :) The site says:

Mac OS X 10.3: Runs well with some caveats

But it'd probably be worth a try. As for KHTML/Webkit compatibility - yep, they're pretty similar, and it's worth testing in Konq anyway if you've got a chance. Still doesn't cover the IE5 scenario though.

Matthew: I've just remembered that I've got the iCab3 pre release kicking around as well if you want that testing. Also Opera 9 PR and Firefox 1.5 if you need Mac versions of those, although I'd guess that'd be the same as the PC versions.

[2by4]

ie 5x was something I worried a lot more about in the past, but I don't even consider it any more, first of all because even with a mac, I can't fix the css bugs or the javascript errors, well, I can fix the js, but I'm not going to spend any time on that tiny market segment.

Happily, mac ie5x use is plummetting, mac did such a good job, and continues to do such a good job, on safari/khtml/applewebkit that most mac users always use it.

[Robin_reala]

Unfortunately a good deal of the sites I make are aimed at the publishing industry, a good portion of which are still on Quark 4 and therefore MacOS9. Apart from iCab 3 there's very little in the way of up-to-date browsers available for them, so they all just use IE5 :(

[2by4]

Oh, that's a drag, defininely. Having to support os 9 is like having to support windows 98 version 1 with IE 4.

But you have to do it in your case. But pearpc doesn't do os 9 does it? Just os x I think. So you can't test for ie 5.1x no matter what without a mac I guess, 5.2x, the os x version isn't the same as 5.1x, different os completely.

I guess it's time to go to the fleamarket and pick up an old mac with os 9 in that case...

[bedlam]

Oh, that's a drag, defininely. Having to support os 9 is like having to support windows 98 version 1 with IE 4.

Not even close. IE 5 Mac gets a lot of bad press, but in terms of html/css it's far less buggy than either of the Windows IE 5.x series, and reasonably comparable to them with respect to its level of css support. Its only really bad problem is that its bugs are different from the more familiar IE Windows bugs.

Unfortunately a good deal of the sites I make are aimed at the publishing industry, a good portion of which are still on Quark 4 and therefore MacOS9

If this is true, you should definitely be able to find a way to test on a Mac; I can't fathom how you can design without access to the client's preferred platform/browser.

In any case, there are two strategies that are essential for making designs work in IE Mac:

1. Design according to the standards, and
   
2. Be familiar with the quirks of the major browsers used by your target audience in advance
   

Item 1 should be pretty automatic by now, and since IE Mac is no longer being developed, item 2 is relatively straightforward -- there aren't going to be many new bugs discovered, and there are lots of resources for learning about IE Mac bugs [google.com] out there...

Get studying :-)

-B

[2by4]

"Not even close. IE 5 Mac gets a lot of bad press, but in terms of html/css it's far less buggy than either of the Windows IE 5.x series, and reasonably comparable to them with respect to its level of css support"

I have to totally disagree with this. IE 5.x windows has a more limited support of css than ie 5x mac, but ie 5x mac bugs are far more serious from my experience. IE 5x windows simply doesn't support some things, but it's pretty easy to get a page working on it with no errors, or almost no errors. So IE 5x windows gives you less css, no w3c box model etc, but the css they implement tends to be pretty solid, very little of my stuff for example does not work in ie 5.0. IE 5x mac on the other hand implements a lot more css, but that's the problem, in that richer implementation, they made some really massive errors, with some massive bugs, very well documented on the web, quirksmode I think has a lot on that if I remember right.

IE 5x windows is predictable, like an old car, ie 5x mac is like an 80's italian sports car, it's cool when it runs, but it breaks down a lot, and it's a pain to fix when it does.

But happily, this no longer matters, except for niche areas, IE 5x mac is dead, gone, and buried, and I'm free to do real work again.

[Robin_reala]

At work we've got a MacOS9 box and another MacOSX box so that's not a problem Bedlam - it's MatthewHSE who's having the availability issues.

[natty]

what about icapture..? is that not alive anymore?
that was a great way to check in safari

[tedster]

Icapture is still available, but as MatthewHSE said, the issue is "not being able to do it "right" without actually having a Mac". A screen capture gives you layout, but you cannot test functionality with it.

[bedlam]

At work we've got a MacOS9 box and another MacOSX box so that's not a problem Bedlam - it's MatthewHSE who's having the availability issues.

So...you're different people then? That explains why you have totally different names! ;-) Sorry about that.

"Not even close. IE 5 Mac gets a lot of bad press, but in terms of html/css it's far less buggy than either of the Windows IE 5.x series, and reasonably comparable to them with respect to its level of css support"

I have to totally disagree with this. IE 5.x windows has a more limited support of css than ie 5x mac...

Well this points to what I should have listed as point three in my list in the last post:

3. Stick to widely supported css

If you do stick to css properties technically supported by both IE 5 series, IE 5 Mac certainly doesn't cause more problems than its Windows counterparts -- remember that IE 5 Win has about the same ugly float bugs and various 'hasLayout'-fixable nasties as IE 6, but IE 5 Mac has relatively few bugs of this sort & severity.

However, more or less buggy, I'm right there with you waiting to strike it from the 'supported browsers' list...

-B

[jaymac]

I certainly can't get to use iCapture. The queue seems to be permanently full - with the same pages all the time. I e-mailed Dan Vine but no change so far.