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Clearly This is the main algorithm used by google,
and any person doing any kind of search engineering needs
to fully understand it.
Now, are there some tutorials and clear notes out there?
I don't mean the original papers by the google founders,
I'm looking for 100% clear tools, visual examples that a non-technical person could understand quickly.
Any one out there who knows 100% how page rank in google in calculated can provide some links/notes?
There just seems to be too much speculation and guesswork right now.
Even a "basic" example would do - clearly no-one except people working in google will know the complete page rank algorithm! I've read the faqs, there is no simple "dummies" list of steps we can take - can we all help each other to build them? A clear flow chart - see my step 1 below as a starting point.
[edited by: The_Subtle_Knife at 11:20 pm (utc) on Feb. 23, 2003]
[webmasterworld.com...]
[webmasterworld.com...]
[webmasterworld.com...]
[webmasterworld.com...]
The knowledge base also has some good info.
[webmasterworld.com...]
If you get 404 with the links they are in the archives and the url needs a 1000 before the 3 like www.webmasterworld.com/forum3/940.htm should be www.webmasterworld.com/forum10003/940.htm
I'm talking about before you even look at a page rank bar, knowing roughly how it's calculated.
Something solid and useful, not wishy washy observations like in searchnerd.
I know the first step already:
----------------------
1. goto www.alltheweb.com, type: Link:www.yourdomain.com
write down the total number of links, and if you have time
every main link that appears and it's Page Rank.
You've got every link that now points to your site and it's page rank.
If you can't find more than 10 links, you haven't got a page rank yet, go get 10 links.
Step 2 anyone?
I need a step 2, as I spent too much time on step 1, and need something else to do.
Also any one have a google/fast api script that can do step one for me?
You either have a toolbar guess or you just have incomming links lower than a PR4. If you have 1 page pointing to your page then depending on the amount of other outgoing links you will have pr. The pages with high PR and few outgoing links are the ones to try and get links from. A PR8 site with 1000s of outgoing links may not equal a PR4 page with one outgoing link.
Can everyone modify Step 1, or add another step? This is what I need - SOLID answers, and a sensible <"snip"> step list.
So far we're all on step 1. There is nothing like it the webmasterworld faqs - I've read them.
[edited by: Marcia at 8:58 pm (utc) on Feb. 24, 2003]
[edit reason] trademark/copyright issue [/edit]
How is it that I have one site www.XYZ.com with a PR of 2 that is listed in google and many other engines/directories and has a few other link backs.
and I have another site www.Geocities.com/ABC/ with no linkbacks, no search engine/directories listing and it has a PR of 7?
[edited by: Marcia at 8:49 pm (utc) on Feb. 24, 2003]
[edit reason] trademark/copyright issue [/edit]
It is a toolbar guess based on how far down the directory structure from the main domain root. It really has no PR.
Sorry The Subtle Knife, don't understand your question. Do you want to know when it is calculated? What else is there?
[edited by: korkus2000 at 11:19 pm (utc) on Feb. 23, 2003]
I will try and hold my stoopid questions after this one. :-)
thanks!
I don't mean the original papers by the google founders,
Why not? Have you actually looked at them? There are some very simple diagrams showing you how the PR flows.
You do not have to understand everything about it, but if you can figure out some of it, you are most of the way there.
If you want to know how pagerank works to the finest detail, get a job as a research scientist at Google. Otherwise forget it. That information isn't in the public domain. If you're a dummy as your thread title infers, then you'll need to rule that one out.
Most people on this forum have an intuitive feeling for what PageRank is even if they don't bother with the maths.
To the best of my "gut feeling", your assumption is wrong that a page doesn't have any pagerank without incoming links. The Pagerank of a single page with no incoming link is 1, which is probably a toolbar zero (because the toolbar appears to be a logarithmic translation of the true pagerank).
Note: I know I said "probably" and I haven't stated a single fact. That's because I don't work for Google.
For this example we will be using a real page, that has
a Page Rank of 6, and managable number of in-bound links.
<snip> Assumes you have no search engine knowledge and shows you step by step things you need to know to calculate your page rank, thus showing you thing you've got
to do to get a good page rank. This assumes you have the google toolbar installed and know how to use it.
Example Site:
"Google Tool - watch the Google Dance"
<snip>
Step 1
------
goto allwheweb.com, type:
link:example.com
Links Found: 39
Dummies Rule 1.1: If you have more the 40,000 links
you've got a page rank of 10 already.
Step 2
------
goto www.google.com, Type:
link:example.com
Number of Pages of Links: 4
Dummies Rule 2.1: If your see more than 0 pages,
you have a page rank greater or equal to 4.
Dummies Rule 2.2: If your page rank is less then 4,
google displays "Your search - link: URL - did not match any documents."
Unique Links Counted: 24
Dummies Rule 2.3: The indentations in the list of link
results show which Links belong to the same Domain.
Don't count the links that are indented.
Step 3
------
Determine how many of those links are from DMOZ.
goto www.dmoz.org, type:
example.com
Write Down Where It appears:
[dmoz.org...]
Dummies Rule 2.1: If the DMOZ page has a Page Rank greater Page Rank 4, it means you have a page rank greater than 1.
Variables So Far:
-----------------
[Alltheweb Links]: 39
[Google Link Pages]: 4
[Google No. of Links]: 24
[DMOZ Category]: /Computers/Internet/Searching/Search_Engines/Google/Tools/
PLEASE HAVE AS MANY OF THE ABOVE VARIABLE HANDY FOR FUTURE POSTS.
To calculate Your Rule of Thumb Page Rank,
Use this equation:
-fill blank here-
END----Updated 24th Feb, The_Subtle_Knife.
Come on everyone, I've done all the steps so far, and I'm a newbie!
Corrections, and references please!
[edited by: Woz at 12:59 am (utc) on Feb. 24, 2003]
[edited by: Marcia at 9:01 pm (utc) on Feb. 24, 2003]
[edit reason] Per Forum No Tools sites or urls, trademark/copyright issue [/edit]
I think you need to read this forum a bit before posting rules. So far as I can see, not one of them holds true in every case, or even most cases.
Jesus, that's where I got them from!
Hence my <"snip">, there really is no point posting to this thread, unless you can correct something of what I've just said, with a reference.
As far as I know, the <"snip"> is 100% correct so far, if it isn't I need corrections.
Please post corrections, additions and references, what I've posted is to get the ball rolling.
I'm even using a real example which we can all verify!
Can anyone help to expand this flowchart?
Posting comments or your general thoughts is just useless.
[edited by: Marcia at 8:53 pm (utc) on Feb. 24, 2003]
[edit reason] trademark/copyright issue [/edit]
Several of your other "rules" made no sense to me whatsoever.
This is incorrect. PR is per page and not per site. You would count these.
goto allwheweb.com, type:example.com
What alltheweb has indexed has nothing to do with what google has indexed. ATW only indexes a small fraction of the web, but they do include links all the links they found.
Dummies Rule 1.1: If you have more the 40,000 links
you've got a page rank of 10 already.
How the heck did you come up with this?
Link count has almost nothing to do with PR. It is the PR that is passes from those links that makes up your PR. So I repeat, link count has almost nothing to do with PR.
Dummies Rule 2.1: If your see more than 0 pages,
you have a page rank greater or equal to 4.
Rule #1, it ain't a rule. You are making an several assumptions, some of which might prove to be true, or at least accurate in most cases.
If you reword it to something like "The general theory is that you will not have any backlinks show if your PR is less than 4".
This way you are not stating it as fact. But there just might be some cases where a PR3 could show backlinks. It also puts it the correct context as to why backlinks are not showing, instead of trying to use that as an indicator instead of the toolbar to find out your PR.
Dummies Rule 2.2: If your page rank is less then 4,
google displays "Your search - link: URL - did not match any documents."
It can also display this if you do not have any backlinks that have a high enough PR to show up. Therefore, while your statement is not false, it distorts the truth.
Dummies Rule 2.3: The indentations in the list of link
results show which Links belong to the same Domain.
Don't count the links that are indented.
First half true, second half false. Google counts those links, so why shouldn't you?
Dummies Rule 2.1: If the DMOZ page has a Page Rank greater Page Rank 4, it means you have a page rank greater than 1
For the purposes of pagerank getting passed to you, a link from DMOZ is EXACTLY like any other link. Once again, why bother trying to figure out your pagerank this way, use the toolbar.
Use this equation:-fill blank here-
1 cheap windows box + 1 copy Internet explorer + 1 copy Google Toolbar + turn on PageRank display + go to the page you want to figure out it's PageRank = find out your PageRank
[edited by: Woz at 2:31 am (utc) on Feb. 24, 2003]
[edit reason] Per Forum Charter - No Tools sites or urls. [/edit]
I think the only one that I can agree is even close to correct is that if you show backlinks in google you are most likely at least a PR4. But so what, you could tell that by looking at your toolbar.
Yes, but how is that PR4 caculated? That's what it's
about. If can show how it's roughly calculated,
people with PR0 will now what to do right?
Can anyone provide a reference link to that rule? It's something I've read a lot.
It's about people with a question on their mind, if they calculate all the variable as indicated in the <snip>, they can gleem a lot on how to improve there page rank.
Can you tell me how you would re-phrase the intro paragraph to make that clear.
Again, it's kinda obvious and wishy washy to say, your page rank is in the google bar.
I want to pin down exact statements, get a general idea from everyone to create an accurate document that everyone agree upon. That way we can all learn how to improve our page rank.
[edited by: Marcia at 9:05 pm (utc) on Feb. 24, 2003]
[edit reason] trademark/copyright issue [/edit]
Yes, but how is that PR4 caculated? That's what it's
about. If can show how it's roughly calculated,
people with PR0 will now what to do right?
Can anyone provide a reference link to that rule? It's something I've read a lot.
Here is the version of the pagerank info for people that can only think in powerpoint.
[hci.stanford.edu...]
This IS what you have to understand. Avoid the big scary calculations if you must, and stick with looking at the pretty pictures and you will start to get the idea.
To understand PageRank, you must at least try and understand this paper. You are trying to come up with your own calculation, when in fact the calculation is already sitting right there.
Read it. And if you have any specific questions about it come back and ask those specific questions. Don't try and reinvent it.
You are trying to complicate something that is very easy.
It's about people with a question on their mind, if they calculate all the variable as indicated in the Page Rank for Dummies, they can gleem a lot on how to improve there page rank.
They don't *need* to understand it, all they need to understand is that they need to get more incoming links.
Again, it's kinda obvious and wishy washy to say, your page rank is in the google bar.
No it isn't! it is a far more accurate way of figuring out your PR than anything that you have mentioned.
I want to pin down exact statements, get a general idea from everyone to create an accurate document that everyone agree upon. That way we can all learn how to improve our page rank.
Too late, we have already agreed that to improve our pagerank all we need to know is to get more incoming links.
The best way to know for sure is to get a job with Google, then talk to the right people. Otherwise, you just do all the stuff needed to build the best site you can, add good content regularly, and get legit high PR incoming links.
if it were possible to exactly determine how Page Rank is set...
This is the purpose of this thread to create a set
of variables that we all agree upon, and a rough equation to the Page Rank Algorithm. I noticed a few <snip's> in my posts, this doesn't help us gain understanding, so I've posted <"snip"> so far on my homepage, which you can get from my profile.
I've posted an update in light of the posts so far, and will continue to do so, please question and provide references - if we all do as a collective Think Tank
as I believe our combined knowledge can build a very accurate picture and public algorithm of google.
This is based on the success of places like the collective detective where groups of people solve very hard gaming problems and puzzles. Things which would take one person many many months to solve have been solved in days.
I urge everyone to keep positive and contribute to this "Think Tank" - and keep things on a professional and non personal basis.
Together we can build a picture - this thread is about creating and agreeing that language that we can use to create an accurate picture of how google determines page rank - roughly anyway.
[edited by: Marcia at 10:18 pm (utc) on Feb. 24, 2003]
[edit reason] trademark/copyright issue [/edit]
Google Information for Webmasters2. What else can I do to get listed in Google?
"Google partners on the Web include Yahoo! and Netscape. If you are having difficulty getting listed in the Google index, you may want to consider submitting your site to either or both of these directories. You can submit to Yahoo! by visiting http: //docs.yahoo.com/info/suggest/. You can submit your site to Netscape's Open Directory Project (DMOZ) by visiting www.dmoz.org. Once your site is included in either of these directories, Google will often index your site within six to eight weeks."
Would this be a good enough reference for
"Dummies Rule 2.1" as I took the original statement out
that being in DMOZ basically important for new sites.
Is the assumption that any sites google are partnered with is a "golden site"?
[edited by: Marcia at 3:14 am (utc) on Feb. 24, 2003]
[edit reason] no tools / URLs, please [/edit]
