Forum Moderators: open
As a newbie to this forum (or any forum for that matter), I was wondering if anyone would be so kind as to tell me what you think are the top 10 things to do to your web site to get good rankings on Google?
I've read about using keywords in your title tag, meta tags, alt tags, hrefs, body copy, comments, etc...
I've read that using CSS to design the site instead of tables will help also...
I've read many of the threads in this forum too.
What does SERP mean? What is www2 and www3 google urls mean?
What is the "dance"? When Google tweaks their algo and re-spiders all sites?
I'm trying to get smart on Google optimization quickly! I'm sure it's not something to learn overnight, but if you could steer me in the right direction, that would be great.
Any thoughts or ideas would be very much appreciated!
There is nothing more to dwell on it. Anyone who is looking more to it, is looking nowhere
No no! You must check all Googles data centers every 5 mins until you see your site listed where you want, then come back here and post your findings. If you do not see your site you must come back here and say how bad Google is ;) It's commonly called 'flogging a dead horse'!
Serioulsy though, Chndru I totally agree! I am amazed at the thinking of some people here on WW. To think that many are "experienced" Webmasters makes it all the more amazing.
Does anyone really think a search engine can tell the difference between shiite content and good content?
Of course it can't.
How about we amend to "all you ned is good content" to "all you need is heaps fo content of any value that appears good to a search engine. It can be total shiite to a user"
For highly competitive criteria post Florida, the high rankers are big sites, many with 100 plus subdomains, and thousands of pages.
All(23) my big sites are fine,most are up, and up a lot, even on terms I have not set them for. My one medium sized site(>50 <100 pages) is down a fair bit, my minnow(<10 pages) is off the rsults totally.
Does anyone really think a search engine can tell the difference between shiite content and good content?
Of course it can! Bad content is simply keywords and phrases with no guts or content and only exists for SE's, e.g Doorway pages etc. Good content is well written, informative, on-topic and exists for humans.
My one medium sized site(>50 <100 pages) is down a fair bit, my minnow(<10 pages) is off the rsults totally.
If you do not have many pages you are not spreading the risk and well suffer badly at times. You probably don't want to hear that, but they are the facts.
"This is a top quality wooden widget, one of our all-time bestsellers."
...and that's it, period. For a great many basic products, and from a user's standpoint, this is succinct and informative perfection.
Problem is it does virtually zilch to induce Google to bring this product before my buyers. Thus, it must become:
"This wholesale wooden blue widget is one of our all-time bulk wholesale widget product bestsellers. In fact, it will retail to your wooden blue widget and small wooden widget customers faster than any other bulk wholesale wooden widget merchandise you can buy online..."
I exaggerate for effect...the challenge is to miraculously squeeze all that forced extra blather in there so it will somehow look like conversational 'great content from a user's perspective' spontaneously trrripping off my tongue la la la. If I sell iron bolts, let's say, I should follow the industry gospel and wax poetic about my bolts with a new page of fresh bolty content every day. At the end of a year I'll have written 365 pages all about...are you on the edge of your seat yet?....bolts. Wow.
Great content is simple, clean, direct and brief. And Google hates the stuff.
Great content is simple, clean, direct and brief. And Google hates the stuff.
Not at all! If the content is apt and only warrants one sentence then it probably doesn't warrant its own page.
What Google "hates" is a page that is of no use to a human *unless* they have to click a link to know what it's all about, eg Doorway pages.
Absolutely right. But if you don't pump it up and give it its own page anyway, you can kiss your sweet biz goodbye.
Um, without a doubt, that is a correct statement, but you've rushed in with you totally wrong assumptions and missed the point totally dude.
Picture this
Where I am, I am able to do an xml feed from a local tourism data source into my site. Source has all sorts of data related to tourism, and is sorted by state, region, suburb, activity, description, even urls and emails of operators.
My client with the 9 pages is a small B&B. I can build a cms that will generate for her a 1 million page megasite, drawing and displaying data for every suburb in my country.Tourism, accomodation and activities
I can auto generate titles, meta keywords, description etc.
I can have heaps of "relvant" content and useful links, though absolutely no relevance to my client who just wants her site to rank well.
I can ensure no duplication of content with other sites using the data, simply by ensuring each page has some substaitally different content and I display things in different orders.
I can auto generate a sitemap that maps the whole thing, and ensure there are relevant anchor text throughout and urls are se friemdly.
I can add a link exchange and allow people a link from a relevant cat in exchange for a link back.
See now? Relevant content as far as my client is concerned, is about 9 pages of data. re:- their site, but as site now has 1,000,000 of pages of relevant tourism, accommodation and travel data and links under it, it is seen as a portal site and will thus rank accordingly.
The content written for each suburb could be total shiite, years out of date, poorly worded, bad grammar or be just total lies and it would make no difference at all. I'm not going to fact check it, nor do I care if anyone ever reads it
THIS is my point.
THIS is what I mean by abiltiy to fool a SE with "relevant" content.
Total overkill solution to fool a SE, but certainly possible to do
But if you don't pump it up and give it its own page anyway, you can kiss your sweet biz goodbye.
Hmm, kind of agree, but kind of don't :o) I think there is a limit to just how much you should "pump it up". If it's a product, yes give it its own page for sure! if it's only a tip etc I think it's best on an existing relevant page.
My client with the 9 pages is a small B&B.
People keep saying things along the lines of "My site doesn't warrant lots of content". If that is *really* true then their business is probably not well suited to the Web and their time, money and effort is probably better spent on other avenues. Sure, have the small web site, but don't expect to do well in a HUGE database like Google. Focus on local directories, newspapers, flyers etc.
However. I still think most people are too set in their ways and cannot think outside the box. For something like a B&B why not quality pages on;
A monthly newsletter uploaded.
A few pages on the history of B&B
A lot of pages on the area of the BB
A lot of pages on the surrounding areas of the BB
A few pages on the owners of the B&B
A few pages on how yummy their meals are
....
Rude is fine, but don't assume you know more than most here. That is not rude, it is foolish. This forum has loads of genuine experts but none who claim to know all and everyone learns from each other. Sure plenty who overstate their knowledge tar all with one brush or you will miss out on usefull insites.
My client used to rank no2 for "my suburb accommodation", post florida bombed to nowhere
Now, smallest site that ranks in top10 for "my suburb accommodation" is a 3700 page portal. No1 is 6500 pages.
I've added about 50 pages of relevant content and 50 new link pages and site is now at 13, but still 3600 pages short to challenge for front page.
If anything, the new google rules just made my business easier, as I know few of the smaller SEO firms are going to be able to maange to portal up their client sites. In my suburb, there are NO local real estate agents in the top 100 for "my suburb real estate"? as they do not have SE friendly pages and google thinks they are tiny...
My clients don't care whether their site merits the position, just that they have it.
I get paid to get it for them.
I'm modifying sites now to portal structure and datafeeding.
A monthly newsletter uploaded.
A few pages on the history of B&B
A lot of pages on the area of the BB
A lot of pages on the surrounding areas of the BB
A few pages on the owners of the B&B
A few pages on how yummy their meals are>>
You make a good point, sure. Problem is nobody can think inside the box anymore. OK, write your 1000-page online dissertation a B&B. What about: steel shelving, um, hubcaps for a 1997 Widgetmobile, um, an ink cartridge for your specific printer model...I can pollute the web with (very literally) a million more pages of completely useless, empty chatter about:
the history of steel shelving, the metal alloys and sheet metal techniques used to build it--let's not about forget the amazing drill bits fused to cut steel shelving parts and the fact that the plants used to be unionized, and have a fascinating history going back a hundred years since George Blott (grand-nephew of eccentric US senator Phineas Blott, who once said that America would not be America without steel shelving) revolutionized what had been a sleepy steel shelving trade for milennia, even since Etruscan times, before the Romans began to demand a higher grade of steel shelving for storing provisions for Caesar's armies in Gaul. At that time an early alchemist by the name of Ranunculus in 354 BC (later burned at the stake for his heretical views) made a startling discovery of a new method of forging steel shelving which rocked the ancient world, and look, here's a million links to sites which sell portable shelves for displaying bric-a-brac or curios, and links to other sites which sell tools you can use to bend your own sheet metal at home ...
...when maybe what the fsck I really want is the best price on a certain kind of steel shelving...
I don't have a solution to offer, so maybe I should shut up. The only point I want to make is that the advice to simply make your site the best it can be for your users and Google take care of you, sounds really hollow and deeply out of touch with reality. Somebody's on crack.
but don't assume you know more than most here
Perhaps I shouldn't have bothered apologising. Now, you show me where I said that I know more than most here? Or are you "assuming" this and thus a "fool" yourself?
[edited by: I_am_back at 8:18 am (utc) on Dec. 12, 2003]
The only point I want to make is that the advice to simply make your site the best it can be for your users and Google take care of you, sounds really hollow and deeply out of touch with reality. Somebody's on crack.
It may sound hollow compared to all the crap that self serving SEO companies dish out, but it's basically true. It's pretty much what have been doing for 10 years and has never failed.
If you want to think that having a successful Website in Google is rocket science I wont stop you, it's one less site to worry about.
I'll stop complaining now because I do realize it really does nothing to change the present Google reality, at least until someone comes up with a brilliant new algo based on brilliant new computers, or someone figures out how to harness a million editor monkeys at a million typewriters so the whole web goes ODP/DMOZ. I just want to to say that for me personally it really grates when old-timers spout that hackneyed mantra for newbies about just making good content and Google will love you. Correction: good optimized content. At least be real.
Version 1
Next versions follow ...
It's not just good content for the end user. Not in all cases. In some cases the website that would really be the best for the end user is a website that just doesn't have the things that Search Engines like, ie. lots of unique topical body text.
Search Engines have never had a way to deal with this (eg. extremely graphical sites, membership based sites, or very focused sites, eg. your typical shopping cart site) - that's the primary reason we see such things as "doorway pages", "link exchanges", "cloaking", etc. There are simply sites in competitive industries out there that don't naturally lend them self to building good (verbose) content. Having a lot of competing firms on some of these subjects just makes this problem worse. The idea of making a million page travel portal out of a small B&B site is crazy - although it might give good rankings, that should really not be necessary.
Still, for anyone new to the field of web design and SEO (which is an entirely different matter than an established site in a competitive industry), the best advice is:
Build an unique site, and add lots of topical content to it - prefer text over graphics whenever possible. Make your pages small and easy loading, and follow the HTML standards. Link out to other relevant sites if they exist and do submit your site to directories and Search Engines.
If you find that there are already some thousand sites out there selling what you plan to sell, or doing what you plan to do, then find another topic - go for unique wherever you can, even if you plan on selling printer widget shelving or whatever.
As you are just starting out, you should do the thing called "market research" - it's as simple as powering up your favorite SE and starting to look for sites that look like the one you had in mind. If there's not a lot of them out there, or if your idea has a twist that would make your site better and hence stand out from the rest - then go ahead. If the competition is fierce and you don't really have what it takes to develop something that's better, then choose another area to spend your time and money in - there are plenty of them to choose from.
/claus
Oh, and if you are a widget seller, you need to be 'another site that sells widgets'.
What annoys me at the mo with G is that the top serps are not content rich informative pages - they are bunch of unsearchable links.
Quality content. And lots of it.
No no! You must check all Googles data centers every 5 mins until you see your site listed where you want, then come back here and post your findings.
So if discussing what works post florida it would be useful to make clear about what type of markets/keyword areas we are talking.
1) adwords
..
..
..
10) adwords
:)
Honestly, this thread [webmasterworld.com...] is over-rated.
Disagree. A very good post which any person new to SEO should be redirected to.
Gopi :-
Chndru , i agree with the content is king/design the site for users not for SE's etc etc, but those stuff's will work if one operates in not-so competitive spaces like a fan site or something like that
Yes. Agree.
In many sales oriented keyword areas what nippi describes is simply true. Sites ranking high are exclusively very large sites, and more often than not are totally void of any original "good" content.
Completely agree.
Sure, good content never hurts a site, but there are several areas where it doesn't help either.
Very very important. It's strange how very few people over here talk about this :)
And Yes as regards to :-
Top 10 Things to Do Well in Google?
It depends but if you are doing this for a long time ... #1 is to
Read Webmasterworld as much as possible. HTH :)
Or were there other steps I'm missing?
: )
Callum - post #2 was yet another excellent post.
Sincerely.
Chris_D
Thanks Claus, I guess.
Globalization has made a simple commodity of every product, meaning anyone can set up selling anything and they just get cheaper and cheaper. Let's say your widgets are really popular and well-priced, with tons of satisified buyers and repeat biz, 20 years already, starting as a brick&mortar, and you truly are the best in the business. But let's say no one can see your honest site because Google won't rank it for the money terms--which are the only ones anyone searches. It's either rank for those KWs, or die.
If you definitely 'have what it takes to make your site better and stand out from the rest,' and that 'twist' (an obscure miracle keyword nobody's discovered yet, but which nonetheless gets massive search volume? A fascinating new page of verbiage no one will ever need or want to read?) everyone else copies it with 10-fold spam, and with lightning speed. Easy for an SEO to say there are plenty of non-competitive new arenas/products to choose from. Where, on Mars? Maybe you mean there are plenty of new clients, or a new one is born every minute...
By this logic anyone selling the best and most popular items (again, most items are now basic commodities, including computers, for example) should simply go into a different line of business and die, if his user-friendly copy doesn't get him ranked, and make way for the massively spammed WalMarts of the net, which Google seems to adore.
The basic how-to list works where competition is weak. Competition is least for unpopular, irrelevant items. Here's an axiom: the more relevant and popular the item, the more irrelevant the top 10 become, because direct, simple, clean descriptions die there. And that's nice... I'll follow your advice and just get out of the way...
Still, they might be very customer focused, and provide very good value to their customers. There's a trade-off between usability and SEO, and clearly as a business you don't want to reduce your sales or conversion, or be considered irrelevant for shopping, just because you want to get a good ranking.
It's a very real problem - SE's are generally not very good for websites that are "just selling stuff", they're much better at handling "information". And of course there's a limit to how much "information" you would naturally provide if your aim is to sell any given product.
Imho, if you run a business, price comparison sites (and even Froogle), directories, industry portals, etc. are worth considering for listings. This is not SEO in the traditional sense, it's more about online marketing and finding relevant sources for leads. Also, working on repeat purchases, customer loyalty, newsletters, viral marketing, etc. is important. Even advertising and off-line marketing - you simply have to use the whole toolbox, not just the little thing called SEO.
Even more so if you compete in generic fields. If you are in these fields and choose to spend your marketing budget exclusively on SEO, then you might find that the "good content" or "whitehat" path will only get you so far (which might be to the top, and it might be page 10, it all depends on so much). However, the more competitive your area is, the more is needed to reach those top spots...
Sidenote: Just occured to me that "Florida" has changed nothing of the above...
/claus
Content is king works for selling 'Peruvian Wood Carvings' not for 'Phentermine'
Ain't that the truth!
Things to do *well* in google depend on what your ultimate goal is and what the playing field looks like.
Although I hate the spammers and sneaky tactics I have seen employed by clever SEOs there's really a lot to learn from them. A competetive field like the travel industry requires all the resources you can muster up.
I think Google is moving more and more towards "networks" that are themed, but it's hard to pinpoint the specifics that work in terms of SERPs.
If you are pluggin' them wood carvings then relax and enjoy the ride, but if you're up against the hood and they've got $$ to invest while all you've got is a thousand dollars and your highly toned SEO techniques then you've got to use whatever it takes.
You've got to come in from many angles to get your site listed up with the big boys.
