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The panic is settling down, the whine of worry is receding to a steady hum in the back of my head, and several recovery plans are forming...
I lost my index page entirely, due to lazy keyword stuffing. My fault! Unfortunately, mine is a very small business: no listing = no food (let alone xmas).
I was planning on overhauling the website anyway, and I've given myself until 1/1/04 before I accept an opening with another business and abandon my own. The question now is: overhaul the index page and resubmit to Google immediately, overhaul the entire website and resubmit the whole thing in a few weeks, overhaul the website (starting with the index page of course) and wait for Googlebot. Time is most definitely a factor.
...are any of these plans likely to restore my index page to the directory before I have to throw in the towel in January?
There are also longer range options of starting over with a new website and closing the old.
Mahalo Nui Loa! (Thank you very much!)
My question to you is how the heck is Google supposed to know if someone enters "widgets" that they want to buy one? Perhaps they are looking about safety issues regarding widgets. For that matter, how can Google even know they are looking for a product? A search engine just looks for matches to specific words and terms; it doesn't know what those terms mean.
As for the second part, I am not a commercial webmaster. However, I have worked with some. If you are selling widgets, then MOST DEFINITELY make sure you'll match on "buy widgets" and "widget sales", etc. Conversions will be higher than just "widgets". People don't add terms like buy and sales unless they are looking to purchase.
Because the vast majority of searchers aren't looking to buy anything. Besides, this isn't harmful at all if you are selling something if info sites come up higher. If they aren't selling anything, then they aren't competitors.
>i dont think i've ever used the word 'buy' when looking to purchase something. if i want to buy christmas ornaments, i type in 'christmas ornaments', not 'buy christmas ornaments'.
Then learn how to refine your searches.
>this would generally give me a nice mix of both informational (how to make your own christmas ornaments) and commercial (buy your christmas ornaments here) types of sites. from many of your posts, it seems as though you are hot on the trail to eliminate commercial sites from google. that would surely disappoint me. i hate shopping, so i do most of my shopping online. i sure would hate to be limited to only sites that tell me how to make my own christmas ornaments, because then i wouldn't have any way to buy the materials to make them online.
Most people do their shopping in meatspace. As for a "nice mix" Google doesn't know how to do that. The nature of PageRank is such that it skews to favor info sites. Info sites tend to link to each other; competitors don't for obvious reasons. And, you aren't limited in the least. Just add words like "buy" to the search term to blow away most of the info sites.
If that isn't a Ferengi Rule of Acquisition, then it ought to be. ;)
Has one of my reality checks bounced? You have a video camera that uses film?
My question to you is how the heck is Google supposed to know if someone enters "widgets" that they want to buy one? Perhaps they are looking about safety issues regarding widgets. For that matter, how can Google even know they are looking for a product? A search engine just looks for matches to specific words and terms; it doesn't know what those terms mean.
I don't know how. Google have hundreds of PhD’s trying to figure out how to build the best search engine; it is for them to figure out the user intent. I only comment on what I see, and IMO they used to deliver better results for product terms than the current ones. Then again this is just my personal opinion based on how I use Google.
If this is intentional, with the view to launch Froogle or something, I do think they are making a strategic mistake by reducing relevancy.
If you are selling widgets, then MOST DEFINITELY make sure you'll match on "buy widgets" and "widget sales", etc.
You are right. I would expect the conversion to be higher for these sorts of terms, and they might become much more used after this update if people can't find suitable shopping sites for the "normal" product name searches.
Way past my bed time now...
While they may have a Ph.D, they aren't telepathic. If the search term is "widgets", that is too ambiguous. If Google is returning more info sites for the term than people hawking it, I stand and applaud Google. This opinion is based on how I use Google.
Personally, I think the most informative, best sites on a subject should be at the top. Whether the site sells something, or whether it sells nothing...
I would have to agree. To take off the filter lens most here at WW view the web through would reveal a very different 'perfect' serp as you suggest.
It would be very interesting to hear from people that, for instance want to research flowers... Their roll in poetry, their roll in great historical events, medicinal uses etc. Why (in their view) should these interests be less important than FTD floral shops?
I personally have a small commerce site ranked #1 for a search term that is the most famous you could imagine. The subject of this term is hailed as one of the greatest human accomplishments of the last 300 years... and are there important sites that give due finding to this incredible subject... no, just my silly site and others similar to mine. In cases like this I question G's algo even though it plays to my very great benefit.
Imagine if you went to the library and in the college physics book you just checked out there were ads mixed into the pages. And the goal of the ads is to make it believable as possible they are not actually ads but part of the teaching material.
This conflict is the serps of all SE's and Google is trying to solve the separation of academic vs. commerce.
These guys (Google) are good; I think in the end we will have a better SE and good business opportunities for everybody that wants them. I love this business.
And, if THAT is what they want, why not search:
[google.com...]
Looks relevant to me.
We could go on forever arguing about whether these resuls are better or not with one person saying theirs are better and the next person saying they are worse.
After 1500 posts or something stupid we've probably got enough mesages to guage the reaction which seems to be about 80/20 in favour of the results being worse than they were a week ago, so I don't think there's any need to continue discussing whether the results are good or not.
Moving forward, if google is still updating then we should all sit back and wait. If it's finished then it won't take google long to see that the results are not as good and they'll sort it out.
I'm sure google have got enough money in the bank to buy some web stats software :) so if users do start deserting them I am confident they'll realise this and do something about it.
In the meantime i'm going to put my feet up until it's over, when i'm sure it's over i might start to analyze it again but i'm bored of looking at it now.
Question: is this based on search terms that would certainly indicate the person was looking to purchase? As in "buy widgets" or "widget sales". If not, I say then Google is working The Way It Ought To Be.
Excellent question, rfgdxm1. Refined my searches along this line. For one of the phrases I am #1, with psuedo authority sites, a few other relevant sites like mine and a few that are clearly out of place. While is seems most who are #1 are proclaiming the virtue of this update, I still am not thrilled by the quality of the serps. It is the inconsistent nature of the results that has me scratching my head.
Another upside is that while I have dropped to #10 for another kw phrase, half of the ones above me truly suck, so Im still getting good traffic. Its updates like this where my keyword domain is worth its weight in gold.
As for a "nice mix" Google doesn't know how to do that.
i beg to differ. when i used the previous example, i hadn't yet done a search on it (as i've never attempted to purchase ornaments online - it was just the first thing that popped into my head since it is the christmas season). just for fun, i then searched it on google - and it came up with a very nice mixture of informational and commercial sites - exactly what you say google doesn't know how to do.
Maybe it wasn't intentional on Google's part to do this - I don't know. But in the past, I've always depended upon Google giving me the most relevant items for the search term - whether that information was information or commercial.
From my understanding, Google is attempting to index, organize, and prioritize the world wide web - NOT the information only portion of the world wide web. there is a lot of information out there - and some of that information is commercial - and believe it or not, many many people actually WANT to find that information.
off my soapbox now.
I was trying to help my son with his homework. We were trying to get some word definitions in Google. Trying to find poetry relating to different life situations. A good 50% of the sites listed in the top 10 had very little relevance. I'm saying that 5 out of 10 of these sites DID NOT GIVE ME A DEFINITION, nor was there any real information pertaining to the poetry we were looking for. Sure there were 10 sites regarding poetry... all of them about college papers... most with very specific titles with a word or two of relevance.... not what we were looking for...
Several times people have come up with examples of very poor non commerce serps only to have another find some obscure relevance to search term that they claim makes that Google result ok... Guess what? It's not ok... It's not remotely ok..
I can buy that it's not over yet. In fact I hope very much that it's not over yet... but don't try to tell me that everything is fine when I can see for myself that is very far from fine...
and for the original search
kw1 kw2 kw3 - 19,665
Since this is what most users do, to keep stating that everything is cool is letting google off the hook. I think that is the point of this 3 thread lament - Google can do better.
to do a more exacting search isn't what most people do though
With all due respect, Google is presumably aiming at those users who have an IQ of at least 100. It's hard for me to believe that anyone capable of using a computer hasn't learned how to refine a search in Google, Ink, AV, or any other SE.
Google isn't a school-marm, it's a Search Engine.
Our site is over 5 years old and, like many, is set up with a general home page which links more specific pages. For instance "car widgets"(home page)-> "blue car widgets" --> "small blue car widgets"
We previously had high (top #10) SERPs for lower level individual pages under their 2-3 keyword phrases (i.e. blue car widgets, small blue car widgets) up through early Thursday. Today (Friday) it seems the page PRIOR to (and pointing to) those are ranking higher than the lower level pages were before (including in many cases the home page), and most of the lower level pages are way, way lower than they were or gone.
Gee what a concept! Higher credit for LINKING important content!
Of course things are still changing from what I've been seeing, so it could just be a temporary anomaly.
Wouldn't it be interesting if Google decided to change the WEIGHTING algorith (not the indexed pages list) daily from now on, just to make it impossible to optimize for any one aspect and to give more sites a chance to be on top?
With all due respect, Google is presumably aiming at those users who have an IQ of at least 100. It's hard for me to believe that anyone capable of using a computer hasn't learned how to refine a search in Google, Ink, AV, or any other SE.
Dont know about Google's target market, but from checking suggestion tools, most searches are still not refined and I'll bet that most the people I know dont know how to refine a search and many dont know that INK and AV exist. I know my visitors dont.
It depends on the keywords. If they're very commercial keywords with a lot of competition, then maybe .04 after the spam is gone is appropriate.
I really don't know why all the internet merchants expected to have permanent free advertising when this was never the commercial reality in the past. Billboards cost money, magazine ads cost money, tv ads cost money... so it goes.
Added: I'm shutting up... sorry about the commercial serps causing so much grief to so many people. Didn't mean to start coming across as smug 'cause we did ok.
[edited by: Stefan at 2:55 am (utc) on Nov. 22, 2003]
If you view source for /images?q=cache: it gives you accurate pagerank (on the unknown scale)
For example, Sergey Brin picture
[google.com...]
gives pr=0.715297 (toolbar=10) for [google.com...]
And the picture of the GoogleGuy (who's identity is finally revealed!)
[google.com...]
gives pr=0.402838 (toolbar=6) for [google.com...]
However, my own picture is rated only at pr='0.000123' - very strange ...
[google.com...]
[edited by: Mikhail_At_Home at 3:06 am (utc) on Nov. 22, 2003]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/romans/
worked for me.
Never mind that I was #1 for my competitive keyword for over a year and now I'm nowhere. That is not important right now.
What is more alarming is, typing in my url text shows me to be buried in the serps. I cannot understand this. This happens on every single dc except www-mc. where I still reside #1. (Must be old data)
Is there anyone out there at all who has a similar problem? I'm really hoping for a reply to this guys.
Any theories?
My url is in my profile - I think I'm allowed to say that.
[edited by: prejudice at 3:19 am (utc) on Nov. 22, 2003]
I honestly think, the SERPS for the kw you mentioned $tinks. The first few results of that keyword are just crap results of other directory/ppc engines.
I am NOT implying that the quality of SERPs are getting bad. I am fairly satisfied with G. I am just saying, claiming the SERPs for that particular kw is good enough/ok is simply unjustifiable IMO.
i am not trying to rake anyone/thing
I was just thinking that it might be a good idea for everyone to remember the reality of the average searcher's world. It is not Webmaster World...
People in WW are not - I repeat, not - *normal* with respect to their knowledge of searching. Suffice to say those in here have a slightly above average understading of how to best use search as a tool, and would do well to remember that.
Here's a list of recent top 40 search terms on the Web. Remember, these are *not* url's...they are search terms...always keep in mind that people are regularly typing "google" and "google.com" into search boxes, presumably to find Google.
paris hilton video
google
ebay
jokes
yahoo
paris hilton
health
dictionary
Paris Hilton
games
michael jackson
yahoo.com
mapquest
background
search engines
lyrics
weather
maps
milf
music
hotmail.com
thanksgiving
recipes
ask jeeves
hotmail
paris hilton tape
parent
dogs
ebay.com
kazaa lite
google.com
cars
clip art
the bachelor
jobs
sears
song lyrics
kazaa
britney spears
quotes
List speaks for itself. ;-)
Your sentiment is shared by many people. After reading some of the posts in the forum by members I have long respected, I thought perhaps I had done something wrong with my websites.
However, I re-checked every other non-google search engine, and still hold the top positions for key terms I should hold ( straight across the board ), and have held for a LONG period of time ( even through the June "update" ).
I would not fear. The Google Staff is very capable of qualifying what are -- and are not -- good search results.
For people who haven't noticed major changes to the SERPS, they are either looking at key terms that are either non-competitive ( I have a few websites that have shown no changes ), have industry leaders that have locked up the top terms so tightly that changes are not effecting the SERPS ( I have a few clients such as these ), they perhaps were not familiar with "site leaders" "pre-update", or they've accidently benefitted from the recent shift.
I don't expect these results to last, or else I'm going to have to talk to companies such as AMD, Frank Sinatra, and host of others who are ranking for things completely unrelated to their business websites, and work out an arrangement to tap into some of this new traffic they are getting!
- Jason
I see better serps and worse serps as well. I also see blatant spamming, bordering on the ridiculous. Given that this is not over yet, i think the end result will be better than before "Florida" - face it, it was too d*** easy [webmasterworld.com] before.
>> surfers are now going to other engines.
My stats do not confirm this. Market shares (as measured by number of SE searches ending on my site) for Google and Yahoo are 100% identical for these two periods:
1) November 14 - November 21 2003
2) September 1 - November 12 2003
>> directories
...have one thing in common - they link out quite happily. I don't suppose it's a deliberate message nor a conspiracy though.
>> Google directory
...nice observation from caryl in post #512 [webmasterworld.com]. Compare to what has previously been stated about directory searches and SERPS.
>> front page dissapearing
...nice observation from Olin2003 in post #519 [webmasterworld.com] - if it's that "bad incoming link" ghost again, it will surely be corrected.
>> SEO "penalty" on the fly for kw1-kw2 or whatever
Something else could be causing things to look like this is happening. Broader matching would naturally reduce ranking for very narrowly optimized sites, but it's probably not just one thing.
>> filters
After all somebody else has to rank where that other site ranked before, so you can't really blacklist a keyword combination altogether... Still, some filtering (as opposed to ranking) was badly needed before all this
>> commercial sites
As i recall, dot-com sites has been mentioned, and a single time a dot-biz. Otoh, blogs also seem a bit downgraded, and they're not all that commercial. This was reported early; at least i had it on my list on page 42 of part 2 [webmasterworld.com]
>> shopping
...is it shops or affiliates that are hit hardest? It's not quite clear in the posts, as ppl tend to distinguish between "information" (which is a lot of things) and "commercial" (which is also a lot of things)
>> english update
...who said this - i've been back to page 35 and i can't find it now. Any non-english sites or SERPS affected? Personally i've seen changes in Danish SERPS but subtle ones only. Then again, Google geo-targeting sees my IP as coming from Germany, and i haven't used my backup ISP during this update.
>> people who haven't noticed major changes to the SERPS
I'm not sure exactly where that dividing line is, but some areas are definitely more stable than others. I can't make myself believe that "commercial" is all gone or that all good sites are disappearing. It's just not what i see. I do see changes, but i do not see a clear pattern yet.
/claus
