Theming

Does Google implement theming? How?

[napoleon bona part 2]

To be honest, this was the topic that brought me on this forum since a friend of mine had mailed me some pages from this forum which had a very long and absorbing debate on theming. What caused a stalemate to the discussion was that no one had an evidence to prove that the phenomenon (theming) exists.

Well, here's one- conduct a search with <3 word search term>. The first site in serps is obviously <searchterm.com> owing to domain name in link text. But the second site is in no way related to <the topic or keyphrase>, hasn't been optimized for the key phrase, and doesn't have the key phrase in the anchor text either. The only reason that I can see is that on every page of <the first site>, there is a link to the second site, which has the text <in the search phrase> surrounding the link consistently on every page. So, apparently Google thinks that <the search term> is a 'theme' for the second site.

I can tell you all these things because the two sites in question are mine. And I have been wondering since eternity what causes <the second site> to appear at second position in serps for <the search term>.

Any moderator around? Or has someone else witnessed such a thing? All suggestions/ideas are welcome.
Thanks.

[glengara]

Seems more like KW proximity to the links than theming, what do you use as the link text?

[napoleon bona part 2]

For site one (can't name sites here as a rule) the link text is a 'three words phrase' which is exactly the name of the site excluding www and .com. For site two also, the link text is domain name excluding www and .com.

[Namaste]

I haven't been able to figure out Google's theming...and I've been at this for sometime. Can someone give some detailed examples...I'll experiment and revert

[glengara]

I could see site B coming up under "similar pages" due to the links, but if the three word link text to site B is irrelevant to A's theme, it's strange site B comes up with A in the SERPs.

[ciml]

The problem I have with 'theming' is that there are so many different ideas for it.

* Theming is analysing at all the pages on a domain, and boosting any page on that domain for the most common theme. (Didn't AltaVista try that years ago?) (I don't think that Google do this now, nor that they will.)

* Theming is giving a boost for the words in the page's ODP category. (I don't think that Google do this now, nor that they will.)

* Theming is giving a boost to the words in the anchor text of backlinks. (Google did this from the start and still do.)

* Theming is giving a boost to the words in _near_ the backlinks on linking pages (Always talked about, but is it or was it ever done?)

* Theming is giving a boost to the page for the words in the titles of linking pages. (Maybe only if they're on a different domain, IP and class C.) (I don't think that Google do this now, but maybe one day?)

* Theming is selecting the pages that contain X, ranked according to traditional techniques; then selecting the results and order according to whom they link to (authority score) (I don't think that Google do this now, but maybe they will.)

* Theming is selecting the pages that contain X, ranked according to traditional techniques; then selecting the results and order according to who links to them. (hub score) (I don't think that Google do this now, but maybe they will.)

* Theming is giving a boost to words similar to the searched word. (I don't think that Google do this now, but they're playing with thesauri so it's not unlikely IMO.)

* Theming is grouping domains into categories and boosting pages based on the caegory they're in. (I don't think that Google do this now, but maybe one day.)

* Theming is giving a boost to the people who bid the most for that word.

OK, I made the last one up but I've heard all the others discussed as theming.

[stuntdubl]

Theming is giving a boost to words similar to the searched word. (I don't think that Google do this now, but they're playing with thesauri so it's not unlikely IMO.)

Any discussion of theming on Google deserves at least a quick reference to: Google Sets [labs.google.com]

[2_much]

Napoleon I think what you're referring to is the boost Google is giving to anchor text in outbound links. If there are words linked in an authority site, it will rank much higher for those phrases even if they're seldom mentioned and have nothing to do with that topic. I think at this point theme'ing is mostly based on anchor text.

[jimbeetle]

Theming is giving a boost to the page for the words in the titles of linking pages. (Maybe only if they're on a different domain, IP and class C.) (I don't think that Google do this now, but maybe one day?)

I've had a gut sense, just a gut sense, for about a year and a half, that Goo do do this now. Maybe not exactly 'theming' semantically, but giving more weight to link text if the title of the page it is on is the same.

Theming is selecting the pages that contain X, ranked according to traditional techniques; then selecting the results and order according to whom they link to (authority score) (I don't think that Google do this now, but maybe they will.)

Kind of what Teoma does, ranking all sites in the neighborhood by whom links to whom. Think it works, I like Teoma results.

[onedumbear]

But the second site is in no way related to "the topic or keyphrase", hasn't been optimized for the key phrase, and doesn't have the key phrase in the anchor text either

When you do a search on this phrase and look at the cached version of it in google, does it say something like...The term "keyword keyword keyword" appears only in links pointing to this page.?

[napoleon bona part 2]

Theming is giving a boost to the words in _near_ the backlinks on linking pages

Well, that's exactly what I was talking about. The key phrase appears near the link to second site on first site and that's why the second one is listed in serps despite the fact that it doesn't deserve to be there- no on-page optimization, no link text, no relevance to the key phrase- nothing.

[napoleon bona part 2]

When you do a search on this phrase and look at the cached version of it in google, does it say something like...The term "keyword keyword keyword" appears only in links pointing to this page.?

Yes, cache does say that. But as I said, the sites are mine, so I know exactly what is the anchor text for the second site- it's either the domain name itself or, at some places, it's the appropriate key phrase for the second site, not at all the key phrase for the first site.

Google cache is another mystery for me though.

[martinibuster]

Theming is giving a boost to the page for the words in the titles of linking pages.

I've got my gut feelings about that, too.

Now what about negative-theming? Like deprecating outbound links from guestbooks?

[TheDave]

I'd just like to point out a small observation I made when exploring the google sets a while back, it may be relevant. Our main business is product A, but some businesses that manufacture product A, also manufacture completely different product B. When searching product A in google sets, it returns product B as a match. The products are completely unrelated. But don't read to much into what I have said, it is only one example from a fairly small sector.

[JayC]

The key phrase appears near the link to second site on first site and that's why the second one is listed in serps despite the fact that it doesn't deserve to be there

Yep, the anchor text that contains the targeted phrase is on the link to the first page, positioned near the link to the second one. I haven't seen that demonstrated before... but I still think it's unlikely to have much effect on ranking except in cases like this one: the search term is not very competitive and there are no sites well-optimized for the term. The page in question has a toolbar PageRank of 6, more than most of the other pages that are returned.

A page well-optimized for the term and with relevant links and decent PR could likely be easily positioned ahead of this less relevant page.

[napoleon bona part 2]

The page in question has a toolbar PageRank of 6, more than most of the other pages that are returned.

I very much doubt if PR could determine the rakings of pages even when the competition is not so great. Yes, the key phrase in question is not too competitive, but another key phrase 'India yellow pages' is a 'bit more' competitive (933 hits on google). This key phrase shows the first site on 5th position and the second one on 13th. The other sites below second site are certainly more optimized than that, at least they have the exact title. The second site has got none. I can't rate meta tag so less effective. After link text, it's the title tag that matters the most IMO.

Apart from that, though the hits for that key phrase are not too many but the competition is certainly there. If you have a site dealing solely in product A, you'll optimize it to the best of your capabilities no matter how less are the hits. You'd look to get all the hits. You can't think of optimizing for product B which might be getting more hits but you don't deal in.

I am noting saying it can't be anything other than theming. But whatever it is, it still needs explaination.

I'm thinking of doing some R&D. I'll first remove the text from near the link to second site and see if the site still ranks there. Then I'll place some more competitive keyword near the link and see what happens. I know one needs controlled conditions to come to a decision, but this is all I can do right now. I'll keep posting in this regards. Thanks.

[napoleon bona part 2]

Well, there's something else to tell- I checked the anchor text for the sixteenth listing for 'India Yellow Pages' through a tool and here's the summary of the link text that tool shows-

Group by Link Text
---------------------No. Keyword Count
1 yellow pages 32
2 india yellow pages 27
3 india ads 1
(long list cut short)
-------------------------

So you see, the site has 27 backlinks with the exact key phrase. Could be more, but the tools displays only the backlinks from PR 4 or more pages. And the site has got the exact meta title too.

The site at 13th position has not even a single backlink with that anchor text. Why would it have? It's a web solutions site.

Now what would you call it? The site at 16th position has got anchor text, title and are doing every bit to top the ranks. I won't say the competition is not there. It's certainly there. I need some explaination guys. We can't dismiss this rare observation as just coincidence.

[dirkz]

How do you check backlinks? Google never seems to show them all. Are you using an alternative?

[Serio]

dirkz - try alltheweb.com

[dirkz]

Yes, Serio, I know, but sometimes I wonder whether webmasters talking about backlinks take this into account. And even if you use Alltheweb, there is no guarantee you get them all, unfortunately.

[napoleon bona part 2]

I didn't say I have checked 'all' the backlinks. I use a tool that reports the anchor text of backlinks from PR 4 or higher PR pages. As I said, the site at 16th position for the search 'India Yellow Pages' has 27 backlinks from PR 4 or higher PR pages that contain the exact key phrase while the site at 13th position has got none.

[dirkz]

while the site at 13th position has got none

This is the problem. You could only reliably prove themeing in this case if you could proove that there is no page in Google's index linking to it with the keyphrase in the anchor text.

I don't say yeah it's themeing, nor do I say it's not. My point is that it's difficult to prove.

[napoleon bona part 2]

Why would one link to a web solutions site using link text 'India yellow pages' or 'Indian yellow pages'? There can hardly be even a single link. Had I myself asked webmasters to link to my site using that link text, it would have been very possible. But would I? I'm not crazy.

And I don't think some SEO hobbyist will do googlebombing only to drive me nuts.

[dirkz]

And I don't think some SEO hobbyist will do googlebombing only to drive me nuts.

Hehe :) You never know.

[napoleon bona part 2]

Yes, you never know with google. That's the problem. But may be together we can dig out something. That's why we're here, aren't we?

[napoleon bona part 2]

May be Google has provided some breathing space for those webmasters who aren't search engines experts but do have relevant sites. I mean, almost every webmaster seems to have discovered the secret of link text, but may be google thinks there may be still many who don't use the keywords in the anchor text because they don't know, but believe in refering to thier site something like this-

Good web hosting site- <a href= "http://www.xyz.com">xyz.com </a>

Or there may be a number of sites who refer to xyz.com saying,
<a href= "http://www.xyz.com">xyz.com </a> is a good web hosting site.

So, may be after link text, Google is paying heed to the text near a link, provided the text near the link appears not just at a couple of pages but on a number of pages.

[vitaplease]

Napoleon you might want to check this:

Does googe give more weight to anchor text or text surrounding links?

[webmasterworld.com...]

It would make sense for Google to weight in the surrounding text of links.
From what very little I have tested in the past; if the surrounding text is not on the target page, it is not factored in.

[napoleon bona part 2]

I have read the thread before but anyways thanks for the concern vitaplease.

From what very little I have tested in the past; if the surrounding text is not on the target page, it is not factored in.

Makes sense. If the text near the link appears on the page as well, it becomes almost obvious that the link has something to do with the text. Otherwise, any text that appears near a link may not always be relevant. But still, I believe that if the text appears near a link many times, then google won't even look if the text is at the linked page or not. At least in my case, the text doesn't appear anywhere on the target page.

Having discussed all that, I feel there's still a lot of room for experimenting in this regards. If something hasn't been proved yet, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'll see if I can observe some trend on remving the text and/or on placing some other text near the link. May be I can come up with another variant of google bombing. Who knows?