Is H1 tag still effective?

[alexandrahan]

Will H1 tag still effective if I use CSS to change H1 content font size and color(but not try to hide it), will this be all right? Will this be punished?

[Nick_W]

Well, then it's misinformed I think.

Currently no search engine routinely grabs external CSS files so how could they possibly know?

I really think that's a little misleading.

Nick

[tmhcorp]

Doesn't it seem that as of this week that this list doesn't seem to work?

In the results I'm checking, if you have the keyword more than twice on the page, you are way down in the SERPS. Anyone else seeing this?

[Nick_W]

Well, SERPS and ALGOS change. That's the nature of the game. This is kind of geared at the general side of things rather than specific algo tweaks... Let's not turn this into another dreary update thread eh? ;)

It's a great discussion, has anyone tested the weighting of <hx> tags properly?

Nick

[kevinpate]

tmhcorp,

A site near and dear to me has several pages where important kw's appear more than 2X with no ill effects.

[tedster]

There have been some reports that exact duplicates in Title and H1 over most or all of the pages on a site can send up a flag that says "This site is intentionally SEO'd." And this person reported what seemed to be a "devaluation" in rank for this constant, exact duplication of the wording between the two spots.

I'm not 100% about these reports, having not formally tested the idea. So I pass it on for your consideration.

I can see how exact wording might set off a filter that looks for potentially machine generated pages. And in practice, I don't always find that my Title content works well for humans when exactly duplicated as a page heading.

Since I know that the Google staff loves "natural" pages and hates having their algo manipulated, I've decided to keep a bit of variation between the two when it feels natural for the human user.

[Nick_W]

Crikey, I'd never have thought of that tedster!

That's one more thing for everyone to get paranoid about I guess, thanks for throwing it in there! ;-)

Nick

[miles]

The best way for you to tell is doing a search on G. When you do the search look at the top 10 listings and see what they use. Then you will know.

[athinktank]

Personally, I use the <h1>blah</h1> on most every page I create. I know that it sometimes looks ugly, but it says loud and clear what this page is all about. It is usually contains part of the <title>site name blah</title> but I leave out other things that make the title more interesting, like the site name.

Further, I leave it large and bold. I feel that it lets the user know, loud and clear, what the focus of this page is. I have never done any tests with H1, but feel is strongly falls into the usability arena.

[Go60Guy]

I don't know, when I see a large <h1> heading, I close the page as rapidly as possible. Just my personal reaction. Others may well be drawn like bears to honey.

[instand1]

Did any of you experiment on H1 or Bold as alternatives?
Changing from one to the other and see what happened?

[sirlion]

I've never used any H tags at all and have been able to get the sites I work hard on into top ten positions. Seems to me H tags are no big deal.

[Go60Guy]

sirloin - How do you know whether or not you could do even better with <hx> tags?

[pageoneresults]

Seems to me H tags are no big deal.

Not a big deal by themselves. But, when you combine them with other elements on the page, they begin to work as part of the team. It's a team effort! ;)

And please remember, this is all about document structure, not whether or not an <h1> is going to help with rankings. By itself, it may not have much effect. Combined with other elements and it could be the one element that helps users to find your site more easily.

[edited by: pageoneresults at 11:11 pm (utc) on June 19, 2003]

[ILLstyle]

tedster -

I know you said you were not 100% but I don't think google would filter this if WC3 recommends.

WC3 says the following:

"The title is generally duplicated in an <h1> element towards the top of the page. Unlike the title, this element can include links, emphasis and other HTML phrase elements."

[Nick_W]

i dont think == i hope

.....and you know it ;)

Nick

[sirlion]

[sirloin - How do you know whether or not you could do even better with <hx> tags?]

Point taken. I just got into the habit of throwing up quick pages with frontpage and didn't bother to use their H tag feature. Large and bold text seems to accomplish the same thing. I'll try it on some lagging sites and see what happens.

[aravindgp]

>>>And please remember, this is all about document structure, not whether or not an <h1> is going to help with rankings.

Document structure did u mean all the elements or factors like bold, link text,keyword location etc.
Could you eloborate on these?And please indicate specific team members...:)

I am personally of the opinion that till now I have implemented most of the on page optimization techiniques I learned here, but couldn't implement <H1>.Due to css style sheet, which I am learning now.
This week will try out that and get back to our team of seo's here
:) and I hope to get into top 10 from top 20.

Aravind

[mil2k]

Ok guys this month I have got some good top 10 results without <h1>. So now i have to convince my clients to use <h1> and in next 60 days maybe we will have an answer. My personal Opinion matches with pageoneresults i.e. <h1> in itself is not as important but when used in combination with other factors it helps :)

[peewhy]

Sounds about right!

We'll expect a fully documented report with facts and figures after sixty days! :)

[mikeH]

Do any of you have an idea whether there is much difference between h1, h2 and h3 tags. I sometimes use h2 and h3 tags which haven't been altered by css. I know I could make my pages look better by using css but it seems a little risky to me.

[mil2k]

Do any of you have an idea whether there is much difference between h1, h2 and h3 tags.

I think there is a difference between <h1> and other <hx> tags.

I know I could make my pages look better by using css but it seems a little risky to me.

I think using CSS is not a Problem. Maybe Nick or some other HTML forum specialist will clear it out.

[tedster]

...don't think google would filter this if WC3 recommends

I agree - I only reported what I did because I heard it from two sources, and one of them has been extremely reputable over many years.

However, I validated some pages at the W3C right after I made that post. And my Tip Of The Day on their validation page was -- you guessed it -- "duplicate your page title in an <h1> element."

I agree - probably not a problem at all.

difference between h1, h2 and h3

You can't legitimately use <H2> or <H3> unless the previous, lower-numbered tag has already appeared in the document. It's about headings and sub-headings, the logical structure of the document.

Because many of us learned "street HTML" -- you know, just make it look the way you want no matter what code it takes -- we got the idea that HTML markup was about rendering. And especially with HTML 3.2, the W3C started to go in that direction. But they've rapidly backed off that approach.

The use of an <Hn> element has nothing to do with how a browser renders the tag's appearance.

In fact, the W3C has been working on an accessibility "validator" and one of the errors it will report is whether the <Hn> elements are properly formed. That is:

1. No <Hn> element can be used unless there was a preceeding <Hn-1> element
2. No jumps from <Hn> to <Hn+2> or further.
3. Only one <H1> element per document.

[tedster]

This feeling that CSS is risky is rather widespread -- but it's really a curious idea. As if HTML was some sort of brain-teaser and we had to play within a crazy set of rules and still make our page look as good as possible.

HTML is about the structure of the document's content. CSS is about instructions for how various user agents should render that content. The entire direction and development of HTML/CSS is the separation of content and appearance.

Search engines are looking for content, not appearance or rendering. There is one, but only one, exception here -- search engines don't like your content to be rendered as invisible ;) But styling any element to be aesthetically pleasing is what CSS is all about and there is absolutely no problem with it at all.

[Nick_W]

Well, I can't put it any better than tedster just did but I'd certainly like to add my agreement.

I've been styling h tags for some considerable time and have never had a single issue with it. The idea that it is risky is quite silly really ;)

Nick

[FleaPit]

I concur :)

[Go60Guy]

It would be nice if we could put that piece of paranoia to rest once and for all.

[peewhy]

There's probably a point system of risk.

Use H1 one at the top of your page - risk factor zero

use it to head each paragraph, you risk making your page look pants!

[edited by: peewhy at 1:16 pm (utc) on June 20, 2003]

[DaveN]

<h6> is important to

Dave

[tedster]

The last time I tested (a year back or so) I found no boost from text in an <h3> tag, but some in an <h2> and more in an <h1>. I've heard from people who test more obsessively than I do, that the weighting for <h2> seems to fluctuate from no apparent boost to a significant help.

At any rate, using <hn> tags to clarify the structure and logic of your document is what makes sense. So of course, keywords will naturally appear in them. I mean, wouldn't a sub-heading naturally set apart one of the major subjects of a document? And wouldn't the page's heading itself say something key about entire page's topic?

I'd say it's really a simple thing. It's all about making your page's content totally obvious to a relatively stupid machine intelligence.

[mikeH]

So are you lot positive altering h1 tags with css has no problems with Google. I have h1 on every page and would love to alter it.