But now looking at the minimum bid for the keywords they are strangely high, but only for some. For instance, one exact match keyword that used to have a QS of 7 and a min bid of $4.25, now has a min bid of $9 but the QS is still 7? So the QS has remained the same, but the min bid has more than doubled. Similarly there's one four word phrase that we have a QS of 10 for, but our min bid is $12. How is this possible? And a majority of the keywords have what looks like more normal min bids, but there's still a significant portion that are unusually high given the QS.
And also, about the domain that saw vitruallt all min bids be raised to $10, I've been in this situation before about two years ago, and in my experience that domain is screwed. Not sure if someone has had a different experience?
Three interesting things I noticed:
- It seems they can jack the min front page bids for a whole account but let the quality scores remain/appear normal
- It seems they can assign a domain a default low quality score
- These penalties are manually removed, though they might be automatically applied
- It seems they can assign a domain a default low quality score
- These penalties are manually removed, though they might be automatically applied "
Yes.. Thanks for sharing.. You are quite right in your observations.. Same here..
Bids have nothing to do with quality score. The minimum first page bid is an automatic calculation, probably done a few times a day (every hour on the hour?) and based on all advertisers data (CTR and bids) at that time. Essentially, it's a search on your keyword. The minimum bid becomes the last advertiser's bid on page one. If he bids 50 cents, that becomes the minimum bid for page one.
> It seems they can assign a domain a default low quality score
I believe so too. If your QS is 1, that's probably what has happened. I've been seeing this on affiliate sites lately as Google is slapping those, or so it appears.
> These penalties are manually removed, though they might be automatically applied
Probably so.
From the Adwords help center: "First page bids are based on the Quality Score and current advertiser competition for that keyword."
[adwords.google.com...]
> The minimum bid becomes the last advertiser's bid on page one.
I manage several accounts, some have a slight overlap. They will see very different fist page bids on the same keywords and match type. And min bids can double and triple and go up to $30+, and then back again after a Googler fiddles with it. Clearly there are other forces at play than the last advertiser's bid. What would make more sense is if they looked at the ad rank of the most recent lowest bidder, and then gave you the amount you need to bid to get equal or more ad rank. It doesn't make any sense for everyone to see the same bid regardless of QS as your bid alone isn't enough to determine if you can rank on the first page (I may have to bid say 50% more than you to get in the 10th spot in reality). Unless the 10 spot is handled differently from every other position, then the actual bid you need to give to beat out the guy in 10 place will vary with QS.
First, contrary to what many people think, increasing your bid does not affect your quality score. If you bid $1 and your QS is 7, increasing your bid to a million dollars will not increase your QS. It may increase your ad's ranking but not your QS.
However, your question is about the minimum bid. What I said earlier is not quite right. It's not the bid of the last advertiser on page one. However, in order to BEAT and outrank him, your QS has to be considered. It is a calculation of YOUR minimum bid based on your QS and the QS of that last advertiser.
So if the last advertiser bids 50 cents with a QS of 8.35645 (Google shows you 8 but is calculated to many decimal points), his ad rank calculation is 417.8. If your QS is 6.862349, you must bid 417.8/6.862349 or 61 cents. That is YOUR minimum bid. Someone else with a different QS (and we all have different QS as far as Google sees it, calculating to x decimals), will have a different minimum bid if they want to be on the first page.
So it's not his bid but his ad ranking. He could be bidding 75 cents with a QS of 5.5 (same ad rank number of 417) and you'd still have to bid 61 cents to beat him. But if he increases his bid, and therefore his ad rank, your minimum would go up as well. Same if his QS increases at the same bid.
So yes, YOUR QS is what determines YOUR minimum bid to be on page one AT THAT MOMENT assuming the same ads. But the minimum having increased or decreased will not affect your QS which is what you were implying.
Some of the forces at play:
1. Everybody's QS changes ever so slightly after each query for that keyword. It is also a relative number across all advertisers.
2. New advertisers will therefore affect your QS as will those leaving or not advertising at the time of the search query.
3. Other advertisers with better or worse ads. If an advertiser comes up with an ad with a better CTR and thus higher QS, that will affect every one else below him. He just might push you down another position and that will increase your minimum.
I think this is news only to the most novice of advertisers.
> What I said earlier is not quite right
If by "not quite right" you mean "inarguably untrue" then I agree. You said "quality score has nothing to do with first page bids" - this is untrue, plain and simple.
> So yes, YOUR QS is what determines YOUR minimum bid to be on page to be on page one AT THAT MOMENT assuming the same ads
No one has argued against this but you. Now you're just repeating what I said using selective capitalization as if the point was yours all along.
> But the minimum having increased or decreased will not affect your QS which is what you were implying.
My question was how QS affects min bid, not the other way around. Not sure what thread you were reading.
Maybe, but worth repeating.
The one thing I said in my first post that is wrong was "If he bids 50 cents, that becomes the minimum bid for page one". I should have thought a bit more before writing that and taken the time to write the correct post, my second. OK, I made a mistake.
My post was on the line "It seems they can jack the min front page bids for a whole account but let the quality scores remain/appear normal".
As explained (even got a thank you note on it), the QS is not affected even as the minimum goes up or down. Sure, your QS is used to determine your minimum. Cause and effect are not related in this case. External factors are.
The paragraph begins with "Bids have nothing to do with quality score." and concludes with "If he bids 50 cents, that becomes the minimum bid for page one". It's not like you slipped and made a typo, the whole paragraph is arguing a point that is incorrect.
Here was my point:
1. They can manually lower your QS, which, since min bid is calculated based on QS, will result in your min bids going up.
2. They can also directly raise your min bids if they want (without touching the QS)
I consider the second point important, because in the first case you will immediately notice that something is wrong (everything has a QS of 1). But in the second case, everything *looks* fine, at least in terms of QS, however the min bids are raised above normal levels for your QS. This means that it may be good idea to go thorugh your account and look for high min bids relative to your QS to check if some penalty is in effect on your account.
I understand how you misunderstood me though. You thought I was saying that it was strange that the min bids got raised and that that didn't effect the QS. But that's not what I was saying. I was just saying that they don't have to lower your QS to raise your min bid, so watch out for that too
> 1. They can manually lower your QS, which, since min bid
> is calculated based on QS, will result in your min bids
> going up.
I highly doubt Google manually adjusts QS. In fact, I'd bet anything on this. QS is calculated by the system, not set by an individual.
> 2. They can also directly raise your min bids if they
> want (without touching the QS)
I highly doubt this as well. Why would Google do this? Doesn't make sense.
> look for high min bids relative to your QS
and what would that be? What's "normal"? The whole thing is based on what advertisers are willing to pay and the quality of their ads.
If I could post a link here, I'd do it but I'm not allowed to do that on this forum. I'd say to go to my site which you can find in my profile but I'm not allowed to do that either. Or search for "Adwords FAQ" and look around tenth position. My nickname without the SW is the same that's at the beginning of the domain. Read the Adwords FAQ found there.
My G rep told me that they found an issue with my account and my QS had therefore been lowered to 1. After taking care of the issues and sending an email, I got a reply 20 mins later that the account had been "restored" and the QS were back to normal again. Make of it what you will
> I highly doubt this as well. Why would Google [directly raise your min bids]? Doesn't make sense.
While trying to figure out why the QS had been lowered we tried using several different domains. The other domains had normal QS but min bids were way high. Again, after contacting the G rep they said that once the issue was taken care of the min bids would be restored to normal values. And again, after fixing the issue and letting the G rep now, the min bids returned to normal values within an hour.
> and what would that be? What's "normal"?
normal = factor of QS and bid of lowest ranking advertiser. I thought we went over this already. So for instance, a $21 min bid for a long tail keyword is *not* normal.
I think I've explained this as clearly as I can, best of luck to you.
PS. Thanks for the tip about your FAQ. However, seeing how most of your advice in this thread has been at odds with the official Adwords guide I think I will stick with that
I highly doubt Google manually adjusts QS. In fact, I'd bet anything on this. QS is calculated by the system, not set by an individual.
Google can and does in some cases manually adjust QS when it comes to evaluating advertiser's landing pages.
In fact, QS is really not that hard to deal with on the algorithm side of things. It's the manual reviews of landing pages that most of the problems seem to revolve around these days and where all of the "running perfectly for months with 10/10 quality scores suddenly going to 1/10" problems arise from.
