Welcome to WebmasterWorld Guest from 3.227.254.12

Forum Moderators: buckworks & eWhisper & skibum

Message Too Old, No Replies

Way to know which keywords an affiliate is using?

     
10:13 am on Dec 8, 2007 (gmt 0)

New User

10+ Year Member

joined:Dec 8, 2007
posts: 9
votes: 0

Hello,

We have an affiliate which uses adwords and gets unbelivable results. Her CPS is 34 while ours is 176 (!) . She doesn't (of course) tell us which keywords she is using and where/when etc. We only know its adwords. Is there any way to discover which kw she is using?

Thanks.

10:18 am on Dec 8, 2007 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member marcia is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

joined:Sept 29, 2000
posts: 12095
votes: 0


Is it the keywords she's using, or how she writes her ads? And is she using direct-to-merchant PPC, or her own landing pages?
10:24 am on Dec 8, 2007 (gmt 0)

New User

10+ Year Member

joined:Dec 8, 2007
posts: 9
votes: 0


Direct-to-merchant PPC. It's the keywords. She gave us hints but I wish there was a way to findout what she uses exactly.
11:05 am on Dec 8, 2007 (gmt 0)

Junior Member

10+ Year Member

joined:Dec 18, 2003
posts:46
votes: 0


Well if it's direct to merchant you should be able to read the referrer (in your web logs) of the traffic she's sending.
12:19 pm on Dec 8, 2007 (gmt 0)

New User

10+ Year Member

joined:Dec 8, 2007
posts: 9
votes: 0


in analytics, in adwords, does it show only our adwords or of other accounts as well? Just ours, right? But in keywords we have so many keywords, who knows what is the ones she is using...
2:22 pm on Dec 8, 2007 (gmt 0)

Full Member

10+ Year Member

joined:Jan 3, 2005
posts:217
votes: 0


Stealing your affiliate's keywords sucks...
2:30 pm on Dec 8, 2007 (gmt 0)

New User

10+ Year Member

joined:Dec 8, 2007
posts: 9
votes: 0


we will use it on other products, we wont touch what she is doing..
2:43 pm on Dec 8, 2007 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member marcia is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

joined:Sept 29, 2000
posts: 12095
votes: 0


>>we will use it on other products

Her keywords won't pertain to other products, those would be different keywords.

>>we wont touch what she is doing..

Of course you will. If you use her keywords you will, why else would you want them? And if she catches you (which she will), she'll be doing what she's doing for your competitors.

Why don't you learn to do your own keyword research, or hire a firm to do it for you? Is it because you want to use her keywords yourself, and then just drop the affiliate program so you won't have to pay commission?

3:34 pm on Dec 8, 2007 (gmt 0)

New User

10+ Year Member

joined:Dec 8, 2007
posts: 9
votes: 0


we sell 1000's of products, she uses some combination which is very effective. We will not have to take her keywords we have other products to promote. If you dont want to help please keep your opinion to yourself and think whatever you want.
4:14 pm on Dec 8, 2007 (gmt 0)

Junior Member

10+ Year Member

joined:Dec 1, 2005
posts:124
votes: 0


This is a public forum and Marcia is more than entitled to her view. What you are asking is at best highly unethical.

Affiliates spend a hell of a lot of time and money refining campaigns and kword lists, my suggestion would be that you attempt the same.

As for not competing for the same products; if this is the case then the kwords would not deliver the same results. Furthermore you would be a competitor for these terms thus inflating your affiliates costs, particularly if you are working with greater margins. The single url policy would also present an issue if you are both in fact linking to the same one.

12:42 am on Dec 9, 2007 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member marcia is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

joined:Sept 29, 2000
posts: 12095
votes: 0


>>We will not have to take her keywords

That's exactly what you're trying to find out

Way to know which keywords an affiliate is using?

>>she uses some combination which is very effective.

That combination it the way she's writing the ads.

1:35 am on Dec 9, 2007 (gmt 0)

Preferred Member

10+ Year Member

joined:Jan 19, 2007
posts: 487
votes: 0


Marcia is right! Its the combo of keywords and the ads that are effective.

One with out the other would result in weaker results.

If she is an valued affiliate, leave her keywords alone!...KF

1:59 am on Dec 9, 2007 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member marcia is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

joined:Sept 29, 2000
posts: 12095
votes: 0


Isn't it also the search phrases she's targeting when "buying" her ads that's an issue? If the merchant targets those same phrases, who will win the bidding price war? Whose ads will stay in for the same landing page, and whose will get kicked out?

Added - here it is:

Furthermore you would be a competitor for these terms thus inflating your affiliates costs, particularly if you are working with greater margins. The single url policy would also present an issue if you are both in fact linking to the same one.

If you aren't having enough success, why don't you see if you can offer to pay her to engage her services to run your in-house campaigns for you? She would be foolish to accept, so there's little chance she would, but it couldn't hurt to try, could it?

[edited by: Marcia at 2:12 am (utc) on Dec. 9, 2007]

12:45 pm on Dec 9, 2007 (gmt 0)

Full Member

10+ Year Member

joined:Dec 8, 2004
posts:338
votes: 0


we sell 1000's of products, she uses some combination which is very effective. We will not have to take her keywords we have other products to promote.

Oh yeah. Like any merchant would not want to cut their cost by 80%.

You can encourage your affiliate to advertise for your 1000's of products too. That way it will be a win win for both of you.

8:35 pm on Dec 9, 2007 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member

joined:June 2, 2006
posts:2241
votes: 8


Once I was approached by a company that asked me to do their own search campaign rather than just be a PPC based affiliate. The pay would be sales based, and budget would come from them.
The reason for that was that they went through three agencies and had poor results. They also said my ads were better than of those agencies. Keywords were broad match only, etc.

I was happy, as it was good to get out of affiliate shell and get into boots of an agency. As you can see here, we are always “chased” for many reasons.

So I made a half page proposal that in short (but clearly) explained my approach, outlined in few phases.

I had to follow up in order to get something back from them. …and the answer was “we decided to keep everything in house”.

It could be that they would have it in house anyway, but it also could be that the fellow manager liked my proposal and thought it would be easy to do it (by themselves).

So much about merchants and their approach.

The initiator of this thread should be able to get that out of his affiliate if they have the right relationship.

I do have some where I can almost send how much I spent last month. Not many though. It is so hard to get the merchant figure that if they’ve shown respect to their affiliates, many of them (affiliates) would take out their last penny to spend onto clicks for that particular campaign, even when they lose money.

davidhu: I am sorry to see you did not get what you’ve expected, but we’ve got screwed so many times, too many.

Have you ever thought about asking your VALUABLE affiliate for a meeting and giving her information you already have, the same one you claim you wanted to turn into more sales? Something like “we see you are good in this, and we think you would do great in that”.

Read carefully now: that THAT may give her a clue which will drive her to bring even more sales, that more that your team would never be capable of.

Think how you can grow your business, not how to cut over the back of your affiliates.

And thanks for the post, it may open eyes of some merchants, in positive way.

On the other side, if we missed the point, and we were all very stupid, SORRY.

P.S.
There are companies out there that charge big buck to give you insight into what you want. Their monthly cost can be as what you spend on your affiliates annually.

3:25 pm on Dec 10, 2007 (gmt 0)

New User

10+ Year Member

joined:Dec 8, 2007
posts: 9
votes: 0


You all assume we want to screw our affiliate and this is just not true. We offered her a higher commission, we gave her help about which other markets she should target etc but she is not going to put $500 a day into these ads which we (if we could get her conversion rates...) would . That's the entire story.

We could offer her to do our ads and get paid for each sale but then why should she care about our conversion rates? She wouldn't... right? because suddenly it is not her money.

8:06 am on Dec 11, 2007 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member

joined:Aug 27, 2002
posts:770
votes: 1


We offered her a higher commission

That's the right way to treat a super affiliate.
Give her a better commission or a bonus every now and then because she performs well, but do not try to employ her or direct her into an area she might not be comfortable with.
Talking about taking money in hand, you have to accept that the situation of an affiliate is completely different to a merchants:
the merchant has an immediate positive cashflow - the money from sales coming in earlier than the invoice from the ppc company.
An affiliate mostly gets the charge for ppc earlier than the credit from the merchant (and than it takes some time for the check to clear).
Also a merchant can spend more on getting a sale as he doesn't have to pay commssions to himself.

So, treat her well and be happy to have such a good promoter for one of your products.

8:48 am on Dec 11, 2007 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:July 29, 2007
posts:2014
votes: 215


Figuring out the keywords is absolutely easy, if you have time and patience.

Run multiple campaigns, cover all keywords, get creative with ad text... the rest is simply a matter of running them each long enough to gather enough data before making a change so that you can compare the old data to the new for effect.

When you're starting out a new campaign, consider the additional cost at first the price of learning what works best.

As for wanting her keywords, it's in your analytics since she goes from google to you directly. Filter out non paid traffic, look at the keywords people are finding you with, search for those keywords on google and the ads on the side will eventually give her up.

Of course, she may also have targeted a site that performs well. Sometimes even a highly rated spam site is a godsend since your ad is the most attractive thing on there. Thats in your analytics too.

Get your detective hat on and good luck. Oh, and just a tip, it may not be 100% her keywords that do the trick, she may be going local to get more targeted traffic, she may be adjusting how much she offers... sometimes even lowering a bid price by a few cents increases the results although explaining that would be hard.

10:16 am on Dec 11, 2007 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member

joined:Aug 27, 2002
posts:770
votes: 1


even lowering a bid price by a few cents increases the results although explaining that would be hard

Let me give it a try:

Not being in the top 3 positions or even getting only onto page 2 could give you clicks of much better quality than when you cover the top positions.
In my experience, many who click through to page two of the search results and then click on an ad, are more willing to buy (or whatever your desired call to action is) than those that just click on the top three spots and then (disappointingly for both) just hit the back button.

11:10 am on Dec 11, 2007 (gmt 0)

New User

10+ Year Member

joined:Dec 8, 2007
posts: 9
votes: 0


OK, we have a problem, maybe you can help. Analytics - in AdWords Campaigns, I see our 6 campaigns + another one that I do not recognize. So this is from one of our affilates. The thing is that in "visits" it is all 0 for all our campaigns but for the other one is it 4. If I change from Site Usage to Clicks then it is full with information... but wy Site Usage is 0? How the hell can it be 0 when we had 1000 clicks? Is there something wrong with the Analytics tag?
2:02 pm on Dec 11, 2007 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:June 20, 2006
posts:2155
votes: 90


in defense of the affiliate, if she's doing great and you want more volume and she's unwilling to spend more for whatever reason, find a way to subsidize her costs further. if you snark her keywords cuz you think you can do better, then you'd very likely be wrong (you should be doing better than her already with your in-house margin) and will very likely get her to leave your program for violating the trust that should exist between legitimate partners.

in defense of the merchant, cheating affiliates who use adware to pop a cookie on your shoppers in your cart will give a similar response to the one you described that she gave. merchants need to know some details - but if she's doing well for you, it shouldn't take much looking to know where her ads are showing up. have a call with her if you aren't sure what she's generally doing and ask for a few examples.

5:35 pm on Dec 11, 2007 (gmt 0)

Junior Member

10+ Year Member

joined:Nov 25, 2006
posts: 48
votes: 0


Hi,

This is my first post (exciting!)

The overall problem this discussion illuminates is that affiliates will only work in areas where its quite profitable. Who can blame them? Merchants need that, but also need "coverage" in keyword areas that are less profitable.

The ideal solution is to find affiliates who will work on a pay-for-performance basis for the lucrative keyword arangements, AND work on a spend + commission basis for the less profitiable areas.

This will force us all to work more closely together which is of course a good thing.

6:51 pm on Dec 11, 2007 (gmt 0)

Full Member

10+ Year Member

joined:July 29, 2003
posts:256
votes: 2


you should be able to see the keywords of your affiliate through a pull of all traffic that contains her affiliate id... you could even write a script to isolate this traffic.

Once you have the keyword I would get the ads... as I agree it is the combination of the two that is making her do so well.

10:49 pm on Dec 12, 2007 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member

joined:Feb 9, 2003
posts:806
votes: 0


That's why you have an affiliate program, so that OTHERS can spend the money and do the advertising for you. Sure, it costs you a cut of the profits, but it keeps you from having to do keyword research, writing ads, testing, testing and more testing...which can be very costly. How about..the thousands of other products you have in mind that you want to promote, why not add those to your current affiliate program and let her, your super affiliate, promote them for you? Once you start messing with YOUR OWN affiliates you are asking for problems.

You may not like what I have to say, but please consider it as I've been in the affiliate "game" for many years now. If I were your affiliate, that is how I'd like to be approached. I wouldn't want to find out that my merchant was trying to "discover" my keywords so that they could use them for their own purposes and benefits...it wouldn't sit too well....

 

Join The Conversation

Moderators and Top Contributors

Hot Threads This Week

Featured Threads

Free SEO Tools

Hire Expert Members