For google.com, since adwords are like banners, I guess this works. But for text links, such as the partner sites, irrelevancy is not good at all.
I think google should adopt a new policy that makes sense. If you own the exact match keyword, you should be placed higher than phrase or broad match.
Placement: Exact match, phrase, broad
Use CTR rates to mix/match.
I just refuse to compete with irrelevant advertisers. I was looking to increase my spending on google, but until the relevancy improves there is no way I try it.
Comments? Anyone else notice this?
jd
PPC was a great way for small business to build a web presence and make sales.
It still is, especially with the new ge-targetting features. AdWords remains the friendliest PPC out there for the small business.
I would never ever recommend Overture or any other PPC program to a small business (body shop, small manufacturing company, etc).
Just click on the keyword tool button and you'll see what you're getting broad matched for.
cline, this is what I consider to be the problem, I'm quite confident to say that the tool shows only a small percentage of what you're getting broad matched for. I know this from my log files
for example, you're bidding on
pizza delivery budapest (broad match)
and your ad pops up for "songs about budapest" search, and the keyword tool doesn't show this "songs about budapest" thing as a possible broad match
I know providing real examples is against the TOS so don't waste your time searching google for 'pizza delivery in budapest' :) but this imaginable example describes the problem very well, there are many strings like that in my log file, and those are only the searches that converted into clicks...
Yes, the search string and the add usually have something in common (like 'budapest' in my example... sometimes even less than that), but the "logic" is often really weird... I know how to use negatives, I use them a lot for broad and phrase match, the problem is that I do not know what negatives to use now
Is this just me or someone else is having the same problem?
ps: sometimes... in my dreams... I see google giving us possibility to choose between "old-style broad match" and the "expanded broad match".... ok, with the expanded broad match being default of course... AdWordsAdvisor, is there a little chance my dreams will come true? ;)
Phrase match you need thousands of negative keywords, but it can be done.
If a campaign was previously working with broad match and then switched to phrase in response to the expanded broad match, presumably it woulnd't be necessary to add any more negative keywords than were running before, yes?
The ads would have a lot more competition but woudn't need more negative keywords would they?
the Adwords algo automatically weeds out the poorly performing match phrases, so an advertiser that is substantially misusing broad match is going to find their ads are gone from the SERPs.
Seems like that would depend on the definition of "poorly performing", click-through or ROI. If broad match shows ads for irrelevant terms that don't generate any clicks, advertisers probably aren't going to be to upset but if they get displayed for expanded matches that do generate lots of clicks but aren't relevant to the website it would be a whole different story.
Good for companies who manage AdWords campaigns, yea:)
From my post on the AdSense forum dated 11/6 at [webmasterworld.com...]
I first wrote to Google on 10/24, providing examples from several pages with ads targetted to the theme of my site but completely mistargeted for the pages in which they appear. This has resulted in a decline in CTR and a huge decline in EPC. I've commented about this on several other threads over the past two weeks.Subsequent to 10/24, I've provided additional examples on two more occasions, always responding to their email to keep all relevant discussion within easy reference. Each time they've responded that they are looking into it and thanking me for my patience.
Earlier this evening, I received what I suspect they want to be an end to this discussion which said that they are constantly refining their search algorithm to increase relevancy and while it works very well in most cases, there are a small number of pages where poorly targeted ads may appear. And then they said the "page" I sent them fits into this group. Page? I sent them URLs to 11 pages which isn't nearly as many pages where the mistargeted ads appear.
So they think they are doing a better job targeting overall. Funny how we've seen so many more comments about mistargeted ads and PSAs over the past 3 weeks than we did prior to that time. And while I specifically commented on broad matching which began on 10/16, they never acknowledged that in their responses. I'm very disappointed in the fact that the program has deteriorated.
I wanted the broad term for my site (a single word), as my main site is a portal for that keyword. In a million page views or so, the CTR was over 5%. In 3000 page views it was less that 5%, so they cut me off automatically.
I then tried to use the negative keywords and exact match keywords suggested by Google, but the search was so narrow that although the CTR went up, the total number of clicks went way down, ten times less, if I remeber correctly.
I complained again and again to Google, but no response. That was a year a go and they have lost at least $2000 I would have spent.
However, as I want a broad search, do you think this new system can help me now?
Most people on the forum seem to agree that going to phrase and exact matching brings up your CTR but at a lower volume. This results in many advertizers redoing their campaigns (like we did)
The irony here is that Google is indeed bringing relevancy for their users up, not because of broad matching but because broad matching "forced" many advertizers to more specific matches!
As this is at lower volumes I wonder what is happening to G's revenue.....
Google started this because of the better relevancy...
are you serious? ;)) if this all is about relevancy why not to cancel broad match as an option, automatically converting all broad-match ads to phrase-match and giving appropriate credits for the previously earned ctr? would this increase the relevancy? yes, absolutely! the question is 'would this increase g's revenue?' :)
because broad matching "forced" many advertizers to more specific matches!
I do not think that many advertisers moved in fact to more specific matches, but I do not have the numbers
As this is at lower volumes I wonder what is happening to G's revenue.....
yes, an interesting question, I think the revenue is up, mostly due to the fact that some advertisers had to increase max cpc, but I personally spend much less than would spend with the old-style broadmatch
pizza delivery budapest (broad match)and your ad pops up for "songs about budapest"
Are you sure? Broad match should only show ads which contain all the words pizza+delivery+budapest+extra words.
Are you sure? Broad match should only show ads which contain all the words pizza+delivery+budapest+extra words.
SlyOldDog,
I think you are wrong, for example, I entered "homes for sale" - not in quotes - in the suggestion tool and these are the 5 top results for broad match:
houses for sale
estate for sale
property for sale
condos for sale
home for sale
As you can see "homes for sale" is not in any of the results.
Are you sure? Broad match should only show ads which contain all the words pizza+delivery+budapest+extra words.
I've stickymailed you a real example, I know these guys do not use one-word broad-match keywords, you can check by searching for each of the words separately, also my ad was there too until someone clicked it and I added this search string to my negatives. And the tool doesn't show this as possible broad-match and never did. And there is even more irrelevant staff in my log file
I entered "homes for sale" - not in quotes - in the suggestion tool and these are the 5 top results for broad match:
if the suggestion tool showed everything you are getting broad-matched for, I'd be just happy cause there is nothing easier than adding more negatives, I believe at present it actually shows 5-10% depending on keywords
for example, let's imagine I was bidding on
pizza moscow
and my add showed for
bird+butifull+mosco
(this is the original visitor's spelling :)
there was more staff like this in my log, so I contacted google and here is the quotation (not exact) from the response I received
"you are using broad match, so when you use
pizza moscow
as your keyword, your ad may be shown when someone searches for "moscow rocket" or "margarita pizza", I've emailed back asking the rep. to rtfm... she never emailed me back :(
by that time I just thought they had someone very unprofessional among their reps, but now I tend to think they were testing new engine and new canned responses getting ready for major changes :)
Maybe there could be an added feature on AdSense to turn off the Broad Match for the ads and stick to the targetted ones. I'd sooner have highly targetted ads, even at a lower earning per clickthrough.
<I would never ever recommend Overture or any other PPC program to a small business (body shop, small manufacturing company, etc>
Those of us who have inserted conversion counters on Adwords and Overture have consistently found that the ROI from Overture is 2-3 times higher than adwords, that is even before expanded broad matching was introduced. For a start the bids are much lower for exact phrases.
Relating that back to the subject of this thread, our profit margin percentage has suffered from broad matching but the volume has gone up so we make more money. It was scary seeing the daily Adwords spend literally multiply but that forced a better understanding of how the program works. A key conclusion is that these days it doesn't go too well on auto-pilot.
Some of our market niches and/or geographic campaigns show a good return from content targeted ads while others end up with the copy displayed on soft porn forums and the like. That can burn the money up big time with broad matching but as long as you figure out what's happening from the logs, it's easy enough to fix. Arguably the ads end up better focused anyway and Google's relevancy improves.
--------------------------------------
".... ads are targeted to the theme of my site, but totally mistargeted to the page where they are showing up."
I am seeing the opposite where ads seem to be triggered by isolated words on the page and not the page topic/theme. I have pages relating to Australia travel and vacations and the page content leaves no room for doubt about that.
However, the word "adventure" on the page seems to be what is attracting ads relating to adventure tours/travel/vacations/resorts/outfitters in Asia, Africa, India, Egypt, Latin America and other exotic locations. Same story with the word "biking" which attracts ads for biking tours in far off exotic locations.
The Australian context throughout the pages seems to have no influence on the ads delivered. As things stand at present, the ads serve no purpose for the advertiser, publisher or viewer.
I had read lots of earlier posts praising the accuracy of the ad matching and I have been somewhat disappointed by my own results.
Broad Match: a phrase containing your chosen keywords.
AND
Expanded Match: With expanded matching, the Google AdWords system automatically runs your ads on highly relevant keywords, including synonyms, related phrases, and plurals, even if they aren't in your keyword lists. For example, if you're currently running ads on the keyword web hosting, expanded matching may identify the keyword website hosting for you. The expanded matches will change over time as we learn more about which new keywords best suit the true meaning of your ads.
I tested it out for Russia since we seem to be on that theme. I typed:
albergi moscow - which is Italian for Hotels Moscow. Alberghi is spelled incorrectly and Mocscow is the English spelling - not Italian. I am searching from a Czech IP address.
And guess what? English hotel ads show up. Clearly nobody is bidding on these keywords. To go from a spelling error in Italian and translating it to an English keyword, is for me....a little bit too broad.
In fact it's downright wrong!
I think in the year and a half on using adwords, I may have had 2 or 3 keywords rejected for relevancy. Out of thousands.
Broad match will never work - we all know that. If google ever wants to be the paid per click king, start taking relevancy seriously for keywords.
Anyone can just throw up the terms widgets and get some clicks. It takes effort to come up with the term [widgets for tractor], but how relevant and targeted for the searcher - and advertiser.
Under this system, the one bidding on widgets broadly shows up, and the correct, exact match is below him. Sorry google, if this was an algo, it would be flawed.
jd
I've stayed mostly in the background on this thread, and others like it - and have been forwarding your feedback to the appropriate teams within Google. So please know that your voices have been heard.
A few posts in this thread have caught my eye, though, and I thought I'd reply with what I hope will be helpful clarification.
In a recent campaign I was buried by broad matches. My term would normally be a 5 cent term. The broad match terms went all the way to page 2.
I wonder if you may be looking at ad title or text to guess the keywords the advertisers are using? Advertisers don't always include their keywords in their ad title/text, so it's possible that some of the ads you're tagging as broad matches are actually being triggered by exact matches.
Also, the quality standard for showing an expanded broad match is actually higher than the standard for an exact match. So if you are in fact seeing a bunch of expanded broad match results, it is quite likely they will be disabled before too long - and disappear.
On a related point: IMO, it is very much to the advantage of the advertiser to be targeted rather than general when selecting keywords. Very specific keywords will usually give you a better CTR, not to mention a pre-qualified customer - one who is searching for exactly what you have to offer.
[edited by: AdWordsAdvisor at 1:46 am (utc) on Nov. 12, 2003]
There's two threads here.. one is the issue of Broad Match for advertisers using AdWords (and to be honest I notice no difference in traffic between Broad Match being on or off) and the other is the impact of this on AdSense publishers, where this *is* a problem.Maybe there could be an added feature on AdSense to turn off the Broad Match for the ads and stick to the targetted ones. I'd sooner have highly targetted ads, even at a lower earning per clickthrough.
This is a something that I wish I'd noticed earlier, Dynamoo, as it is well worth clarification.
Expanded broad matches are currently being shown on Google, and our search partner sites. However, they are not being shown on content partner sites. So the launch of expanded broad matches hasn’t changed the types of ads that show up for AdSense content sites.
And, a brief side note:
I've mentioned before that I am not formally involved with the AdSense team, and so not fully up-to-speed on the program. (I'll be getting more deeply involved with the program in the coming months though, which is great!)
Please know that members of the AdSense team regularly review comment on the WebmasterWorld AdSense Forum, so posting to that forum is the great way to give feedback to the right people at Google.
How about one day google determines advertiser position by CTR only? This way, if the keyword is exact, phrase or broad, it would not matter. Searchers would get the absolute most relevent results, and advertisers would serve more targeted ads.
I am pretty sure average cost per click would go down in the beginning, but not by much. In theory, advertisers ROI should go up and they would want to spend more. This would also level the field agains the large advertisers.
What's great is if the searcher is happy with relevant results, wouldn't that mean a lot more clicks on ads?
I wonder what would happen that day. Thoughts?
jd
I notice you didn't reply on the translation issue. Is that because you consider it a small problem or because it is too sensitive to discuss?
I have no idea what extra revenues Google earns from translating foreign keywords and displaying English ads, but I guess it's not peanuts?
I'm trying to gage how the change to broadmatch has been for everyone, Good, bad or indiffrent.
Especilly intrested in larger advertisers as most people seemed to think this was going to be good for them.
In my opinion it has changed the adwords system completley round from being good for large advertisers to being a liability. We used to spend around $50k and was looking to increase the spend to $100k since the change we now spend around $20k because we opted out infavour of phrase match and the returns just aernt coming through. We just cant get the system to work well for us.
Are other large advertisers seeing the same?
Also are there smaller advertisers seeing a better ROI, I would imagine this to be the case as they can spend longer trying to perfect there niche terms.
Is this true?
To sumaries- how has the new changes made a diffrence. if possitive, what are you doing diffrent, because i cant get the new system to work and if nothing chnges by the end of the month i think ill just pull out of adwords for good.
Any Ideas Shak?
****************
I wish I could give some positive feedback as it would mean my sales were like they used to be.
No can do. No matter what I try in my field I cannot get those clicks back.
I am a tiny advertiser $500 a month (previously) and broad KWs that were working for me are now practically orphaned of ads. One main one is left and is paying peanuts.
I'm taking my current money, and future much bigger monies elsewhere.
So if big spenders are hurt as well as little ones then then who the heck is happy? The silent majority? Can there be one?
Also are there smaller advertisers seeing a better ROI, I would imagine this to be the case as they can spend longer trying to perfect there niche terms.
Maybe a better ROI is seen for small advertisers but that is only part of the picture. You need clicks and I am not getting them.
Had a major site outage and then came back online to find my Adwords had tanked. Reading what everyone said, and the timeline of when my earnings tanked it all makes sense. Im doing 50-70% less a day then I was before with the same if not more traffic and banner showings. And yes the same ad shows up everywhere. Even less relevant when you have a site about 2 or more totally differnt topics.
:(
I'll throw out a completely crazy idea - perhaps Google is doing this to temporarily dampen its revenues so that it can have more control over meeting and beating the Street's estimates once they do go public.
If they go public based on broadmatch revenues, they'll be able to slowly phase it out and return their system to the way it was before, and in so doing ramp up their revenues and please the Street.
Does that sound insane or plausible?
Even though we lost some high CTR keywords due to the "Google only" rankings the total clicks and impressions are up and business is booming. Almost all of our terms are broad match. CTR across the board is above 2%.
We have used negative words extensively and even though we are a niche business (small independent tourist accommodations and activities) we must advertise under general regional terms to get to the people we want. A 2% CTR is great considering that most searchers aren't looking for us. Usually they are seeking general info on our area not our service. All we can hope to do is be there for the few that need us and keep our CTR high enough to keep the keywords we need.
AWA has stated that the broad match has a learning curve for the system. Talk of arbitrarily lower revenues in face of the IPO is a little out there (sorry shorebreak).
If they go public based on broadmatch revenues, they'll be able to slowly phase it out and return their system to the way it was before, and in so doing ramp up their revenues and please the Street.
Unless lots of advertisers are pulling ads, it would seem like this would increase revenue growth instead of dampening it. More ads on more searches would seem to result in more $$$ for Google.
perhaps Google is doing this to temporarily dampen its revenues
shorebreak,
Do we know that revenues are down in Adwords overall?
I certainly hope so as it will make them focus extra hard.
A former Prime Minister of Aust. once said when asked about a thorny issue -
"If it is a question of a conspiracy or a stuff-up, go for the stuff-up everytime".
I think broadmatch is definitely a stuff-up.
