Forum Moderators: martinibuster
While Google is a great company right now but we have seen many examples when the fine print and corporate lawyers eventually kill a great idea and valuable product or end up telling us what to do in the end.
If you look at the AdSense agreement right now you will see that you have NO rights to anything. Great example would be disclosing simple performance statistics of your own site or knowing Google’s commission. I think it is unacceptable.
In the future 2-3 Corporations will control majority of ad revenue and will make it impossible to compete in this market. Modern Radio and TV Stations are a good example. The commercial space of promoting valuable information could be limited to few distribution channels and eventually making it impossible to develop a NEW distribution channel.
Try to launch a new Radio Station or TV station right now that promotes independent view free from approval of Corporate lawyers. See how long you are going to stay in business.
What do you think about it? I want to KNOW what other people have to say about this. I want to be ABLE to publish my CTR, and REVENUE.. I want to KNOW
If they rip me off when I pay for ADWORDS...
Put simply, nobody forces you to publish AdSense on your web sites. So if you do not agree with their TOS, you do not bother participating.
As for me, I am happy to participate on their terms....as long as it is commercially worthwhile to do so.
And in addition, follow the advice given frequently by EuropeForVisitors.. do not put all your eggs in one basket try to get 65% of your web site income from other sources.
I personally don't understand the obsession with the IPO. I'm sure there must be ways of extracting some of the company's worth for employees and stakeholders while raising additional capital that wouldn't threaten Google's [relative] editorial neutrality and make it more vulnerable to a buyout.
1. No disclosure of payment. This keeps their options open for the future when competitors inevitably show up. Very smart, and a very brave decision to make. Just because nobody has done this kind of arrangement before doesn't mean it still isn't fair. I know exactly how much I can earn from ad space on my website, and the cheques that Google sends is much much higher. Why do you want to know? Do you think Google is scamming you?
2. No disclosure of stats. This was incredibly wise, and once again, a pretty brave stand to take. Why do you want conversion stats? So you can fine tune your website to give you better advertising revenue. That's fine in the short term, but in the long term the web will end up with highly optimized websites that look exactly the same.
It's your job to create content - let Google handle optimizing the advertising. It can't be the other way around for this to work in the long term.
So... are you making a better CPM through Google than any other form of advertising? If so, why are you complaining?
Sure we are happy because we compare Google with other CRAPPY formats and full of scam affiliate programs (“weren’t they supposed to change the word as well”) but at the end I’m talking about that we might not have a choice of a good quality distribution channel once “OVERTURES” and others are sold and commercialized to the point of no return.
10 cents minimums on Overture and $299 Yahoo submission fees are good examples of corporate development and strategy. They control distribution. Period.
I think someone out to come out with OPEN SOURCE solution and algorithms and model global distribution after P2P networks with instant feedback to help deliver the most relevant information to users.
After all if you are hiding MY information from ME and others can I trust you?
They're paying you to trust them. If you can do better elsewhere then by all means do so. I think most of us agree that Google may be worthy of more trust than many other ad networks, if for no other reason than the fact that you know they aren't going to just disappear into the night and leave you holding the bag. Sure, that's by virtue of their size, profitability, and corporate-ness, and most people think those are dirty words, but I'm inclined not to argue with success, be it Google's or my own.
I'm not entirely comfortable about the non-disclosure requirements regarding PPC, CTR and CPM but if it stops the Spam Kings killing the entire system for everybody then I'm happy to put up with it.
Google definitely doesn't want you to be able to optimise for AdSense too much, otherwise they'd publish more stats.
If that lack of information encourages website authors to concentrate more on writing their websites for their readers and less on writing their websites for AdSense, than can only be a good thing.
Start making decisions on return rather than on what might happen. When and if google adsense doesnt pay then on to the next one. I display their ads...they pay me....as long as that happens then what's the issue? As long as return is greater than I could generate elsewhere I will stay with them. Couldn't care less if they used moon rotations of pluto to calculate the return, as long as it suits my needs.
Trust extends as far as the next payment, nothing more or less.
Almost all agree that Google performs much better then anything else and everyone simply agree to comply because they know that there is NOWHERE to go with their
content to get a decent return.
Why don’t you offer me an alternative?
So if tomorrow you decide to invest $50K in the website and would like to promote it you’ll have to “trust” the fine print and Google brand instead of third party audited numbers hoping to get a return from AdSense in the future?
It looks like everyone is trying to be so "honest" about complying with Google’s rules that it almost seems to be too good to be true.
Trust has nothing to do with this....its all about the money. Like I said, they can tell me whatever they want...but I trust my peers on this board to evaluate it...more than the written word.
However I will live up to the contract I agreed to as far as TOS. Not going to give up a good thing because of violations. This is the terms I agreed to, just like many other non disclosures I see every day in the non cyber world, Nothing unique here at all.
2. No disclosure of stats. This was incredibly wise, and once again, a pretty brave stand to take.
Hmmm.... Shrewd, maybe... I don't know about brave. Their contracts give themselves all the cards, so at any time they can pack up and go home and it'll only mean one failed experimental business unit within a massively profitable company. Brave is putting something big on the line, Rosa Parks style.
The non-disclosure thing irks me. I've never had a strong desire to share my stats or find out anyone else's, really, but in principle it bothers me that a company founded upon free speech is limiting mine, and getting away with it, and I'm loving it and asking for more.
Nobody expects Google to publish their algorithms but I think it is a legitimate requests to be able to discuss performance of MY OWN site with whoever I want.
If we find out you're making $10/click with 10% CTR on a certain subject, do you want 1000 new competitors in the morning? This is what happens in SEO, and this is why SERPs are just about worthless sometimes. This is the sort of thing that would corrupt the whole AdSense system, for you, for the advertiser, for Google.
If we find out you're making $10/click with 10% CTR on a certain subject
I agree with this too. If someone discovered they were making $10 a click for "fuzzy turquoise widgets" there would be nothing to stop someone else from adding a page on fuzzy turquoise widgets onto their Dixie Chicks fan site - a completely irrelevant content page to that site.
Google doesn't want to see that happening, because they need to keep their AdWords advertisers happy - and they don't want to see publishers adding totally unrelated content to their site because they hear it is a high CPC, because that wouldn't be providing the best targeted impressions for their PAYING advertisers. True, that particular page is on "fuzzy turquoise widgets" but few, if any, Dixie Chicks fans are interested in those particular kinds of widgets.
In other threads, we have already discussed this happening, where AdSense sites are prominently featuring links to pages on irrelevant content, simply because it is believed the content on those particular pages would result in a high CPC. Not the best quality impressions for AdWords advertisers, and with the number of those advertisers opting out of AdSense, Google is trying to do what it can to esure those advertisers of the best possible impressions. Keep AdWords advertisers happy enough to allow their ads to be shown through AdSense, and that means more $$ for Google.
Google is a business. They are there to make money, and as much of it as possible. And so obviously, their terms/policies/FAQ will reflect that.
If you aren't comfortable abiding by Google's terms/policies/FAQ, then don't display AdSense. It is important to remember, Google is paying publishers to display AdSense, and in return they expect you to abide by their rules. Quite simple.
And I think cornwall summed it up best - "if you don't like the heat, then stay out of the kitchen."
The big question is NOT whether I will discuss my earnings and CPC with anyone but rather WHY can’t I do so? Huh?
Why someone dictates me what should I do with my data?
Sure they know that choices are limited. Corporations kill every possible good idea at the end and turn it into hypocrisy of “American Dream” by lowering barriers of entries for business YET controlling the important aspects distribution channels and customer base with laws and restrictions.
Good luck selling burgers when you need a license to grow beef…
It is obvious that opinion expressed here reflect people that have never planned for a large long term project.
I think it is naive to think that about those who have responded. I can assure you the opposite is true for many members here.
But in terms of the long run, as with any business, you shouldn't rely on any one source of income to build your business on. That is not planning for the long term, that is simply being hopeful for continued income with circumstances you cannot control. Many of us think of AdSense as an added bonus. When planning for the long term, you should never put your eggs in one basket, especially one that relies on the PPC market and the percentage Google wants to share with publishers.
The big question is NOT whether I will discuss my earnings and CPC with anyone but rather WHY can’t I do so? Huh?
Because Google says so, and you have to agree to those terms if/when you sign up. AdSense revenue is not a right, therefore, Google can dictate what you can and can't do with their information. They are paying you for that right. If you don't want to be bound by what they say you can and can't do, then it is simple, don't use AdSense and find another way to bring in revenue. It won't be long before there will be other competitors to choose from, but I suspect they will also follow Google's lead and have similar terms as well.
Why someone dictates me what should I do with my data?
That is Google's data they are sharing with you, not the other way around.
surely you are not planning on depending on Adsense are you for revenue? If so forget it. Im sure many here have done long term planning and they do know that that involves contingencies and many unknowns, some you can control, some you cant.
Its naive to think that you can depend on Adsense for medium, even short term revenue, but there is a good chance that it may have changed the on-line ad landscape such that a broad view of the medium term to long term may see the prospect of more opportunities for revenue for info sites from competitors.
The key to long term planning is to have contingencies, upcoming options and to change the things you can, and save your effort in changing the things you cant.
To me this thread has been full of pragamatic business-based good advice. Now if only the google forum was like this!
You may or may not have planned for a large long term project...we have no idea who you are, or where you are coming from. You signed on with a new user name at WebmasterWorld and have only posted in this thread. You maybe a new poster, or an old poster using a new name to sound off on a subject that you do not want tracked back to you.
Fair enough, but I have been around here long enough to know and respect the opinions of the senior members who have posted here...
...people who do run large long term projects. Most of us have been on the web for more years than we care to own up to, and make sums of money that are or own business, but are in most people's language reasonable.
You are somewhat disingenuous in stating that we have planned and executed sucessfully large projects :(
It is obvious that opinion expressed here reflect people that have never planned for a large long term project. Sure if you have small site “targeted” to make a quick buck by testing what is working with Google and if does not then switch to another provider.
Hardly! To cite just one example of how inaccurate a generalized assumption can be, we have one member who's been running a site for years that's been nothing less than lucrative over the long term. It's a site with well over 3,000 pages of top quality professional content and was voted Forbes "Best of the Web" in Spring of 2003. That's just one. We can't safely assume we know, particularly when in all honesty we're entering into dialog with preconceived reasoning and conclusions on our part.
A business agreement is a type of covenant relationship, and for any to survive long term they have to be based on trust and integrity on the part of all parties concerned.
If Google sets certain conditions to maintain the integrity of the system and puts themselves in a position of trust toward publishers, if those publishers don't respond with the same level of trust back and don't agree with the terms of the conditions, those people have freedom of choice and just shouldn't be involved.
It really seems very simple. Hitting the enter button signifies "I AGREE" to conditions - so if it's really "I don't agree" then why hit it in the first place?
GuidedKing2004 - I may be the only one to admit publicly that I know the percentage of payout and CTR. I'm sure many other folks do also as it's really not that hard to figure out. For me it was a must to know in order to give client advice.
So, if you really want to know then take some time to figure it out and don't be so upset because you think it is such a secret just because you think Google should make it easy on you.
JAG
Does Macy's tell Gimbels? [google.com]
Does anyone remember the days of $6.00 CPM? Or what about that banner you tried to get your visitors to sign up for that paid you a percentage of how many impressions they had on their desktop....
If I had based my business on any of those then where would I be.....
The key these days is keep watching, watch some more, have an easily customizable web site and get in quick, make hay and be prepared for the rainy days. And have a big umbrella.
Rely on no-one.....
If they send the dollars and you can leave at anytime then who cares.....
Mind having said all that I am a sole webmaster so it must be hard if you are a big company. But to quote cornwall earlier
As they say, if you don't like the heat, then stay out of the kitchen.
There's no such thing as entering into agreements without some sort of conditions, and they're entered into by mutual consent. Contractors of all sorts do work agreements with corporations all the time with NDA attached to them - it's not uncommon at all.
Of course, but NDAs aren't usually so far-reaching as to tell me that I can't disclose how much money I've made with the company, are they? I feel like a friendly contract should allow me to own that information.
I mean, they could also ask me never again to use the word "duck" when I speak, as a condition of joining AdSense. I'd probably still sign, willingly, but that doesn't make it right.
Of course no one is under any obligation to sign anything. No one thinks this is illegal, just surprising and disappointing.
OK, back atcha with a question, Doug.
Say if someone does a web design job for a company and they charge them a dirt cheap price, do you think it's fair to ask that the price not be revealed, so that others won't also demand the same dirt cheap price? Or if it's a normal price, that competitors won't come along and use that information to compete by under-cutting prices?
People shop the competition all the time, but if someone's aware that it's a competitor trying to get that knowledge or that a competitor intends to use against them - should Macy's tell Gimbels?
There is a reason why Labor unions exists and there is a reason why controlled medium is regulated by the law. You have to have negotiating power.
While it is true that I’m not forced to use AdSense I still have to use AdSense just to stay in business because the only alternative is to build your own NETWORK of sites and have combined selling power of larger scale.
People that put their hard work into building commercial quality content should be VERY concerned about consolidation of PPC companies and forced to accept TOC’s like you own nothing concept.
But, you do also have access to the information you seek. As I said earlier. It takes a few minutes to figure out what the revenue split is and maybe an hour to put in ctr tracking if starting from scratch.
So all you are really left with is not being able to share that information with anyone else.
JAG
No one thinks this is illegal, just surprising and disappointing.
How much of a disappointment is it that they won't let you shoot yourself in the foot, along with all other parties involved?
...and before you start talking about how you're too smart to go talking about where your bread is buttered to potential competitors, remember there are lot of people who aren't, or who just like to brag about numbers but don't cover their tracks.
Barriers to entry are either good or bad, depending on which side of them you're on. Sometimes they're even good when you're on the wrong side, since you'll know any old jackass can't come along and duplicate your concept when you're contemplating a business venture. I, for one, can appreciate that Google has decided to build some barriers around my AdSense earnings. The internet is so incredibly open already. A 6-year-old kid from Madagascar can come along with the next big thing and put 50 people out of business in the process. When someone tries to protect you, why do you need to question it? Sure, they're interested in their own success as well, but if they aren't making money, you can bet that you won't be either.
While it is true that I’m not forced to use AdSense I still have to use AdSense just to stay in business because the only alternative is to build your own NETWORK of sites and have combined selling power of larger scale.
This is untrue. There are many who still make more selling their own advertising than the money they bring in from AdSense. And these are not sites with any kind of network, or needing a combined selling power on a larger scale at all, or with a huge brand backing them.
If you are running a business, and AdSense is the only thing that is keeping your business going, you should be taking a hard look at your business and see why that is. You should never EVER rely on one source for your main business income. What would happen if tomorrow Google sends you the fraudulent clicks email and decides to terminate your account? If your business would go under without AdSense, you should really look to spread your business out more, so that your eggs are not all in one basket.
And as justageek said, the only thing really at issue is the fact you can't share your stats with others. But I can see why Google does this, and since they are the only viable option we have as publishers at this time, why would they risk handing over all those stats to the competition? If you were in Google's position, I am sure you would see the business sense of doing the exact same thing.
Of course, but NDAs aren't usually so far-reaching as to tell me that I can't disclose how much money I've made with the company, are they?
You would probably be amazed at how far-reaching many NDAs are, particularly when it comes to online business. With some, you cannot even tell others you are working on a project with a NDA. And how much money a person will make is often right near the top of things in the NDA.
This is a great new opportunity for us as publishers to generate additional income from our sites. The vast majority of my advertising revenue comes direct from advertisers who pay me monthly. It does not come from Google and I do not rely on Google to make a living. It is not a good business decision to rely too heavily on one source of income.
I'm very happy to do business with Google in this manner. Not only am I making additional revenue, but I think that the ads improve the user experience. When I browse through my favorite car magazine I do it as much to see the ads as to read the stories. I like to see what is available that I may want to buy. The new frontier that Google is forging here gives my users an even better level of targeted ads that may interest them.
Looking at this minor point and focusing on it is like looking at Cindy Crawford and complaining about the mole on her face. A little less Mein Kempf and a little more Atlas Shrugged is in order. ;)
Have to agree with the other theme that others have reiterated here, have conntingency plans, and don't become too reliant on any one business partner, unless you have the "shotgun buyout" on your side.
By the way ....I do long term business planning for all of my investments including websites, as I think many other of my peers here do also.
As far as new site, make sure that you minimize the risk as much as possible, and quite honestly...that old rule " that loose lips sink ships applies" here.
It took me all of twenty minutes to put it every one of my sites (5).
It would take me about 10 minutes to take it off all of them.
So yeah, while it is making me money and the terms are ok, I will continue it. If they start doing crappy things (like I feel BURST! started doing). I will rip them off and go back to not having AdSense.
BZ
