Forum Moderators: martinibuster
Surely if your company had been defrauded the sum of $200k, you wouldn't want to co-operate with them anymore? What makes matter more interesting is, over the last 5 months Google have paid out $386k to me, which means over 50% of all my clicks have been invalid. Assuming this has been going on for months and months, why was I never told this during any of the recent and frequent conversations I have with my member of the google optimization staff, especially when the converstaions were about increasing my revenue and optimizing my site?
I hope for certain that this is a decimal point error, but if they intend to deduct over $200,000 from my account over the next few months, I'll be left with little choice but to pull the google ads and replace them with adverts that will actually generate me some income.
Anyone have any thoughts on this matter?
Thanks.
Second I would pull my Google Adsense immediately.
I believe the worst case scenario would be Google would demand that I refund them $200,000.
In which case I would kindly inform them that I would be delighted - please show me some minimal information that indeed the clicks were fraudulent.
Google would point to the the agreement saying they are full arbiters, and that I have "signed" away such rights.
And in turn I would indicate that I am delighted to put it back as soon as they give me some further reason other then "they were fraudulent".
Google might take me to arbitration/court.
And then there would be the first test of a contract between Adsense members and Google.
I believe, that if I could prove it that the Adsense agreement is so out of balance there is no way for it to be even reasonable, Google would be in an uncomfortable position.
Only a short while ago a publisher earning in UPS club was banned and income kept for?
The site was attracting high percentage of audience from teens base
This publisher I believe attracting similar audience and also has problems
Is it possible it is not click fraud ( but clicks that are worthless to the advertisers that have caused these problems )
If so does this mean sites with large scale teen audience / multiple page views / same visitors day after day could cause problems for webmasters using the Adsense model
If so where does this leave the Myspace deal
PS My own feeling is niether of these publishers were involved in large scale fraud just caught in a no win situation due to target audience
just my thoughts
steve
Second I would pull my Google Adsense immediately.I believe the worst case scenario would be Google would demand that I refund them $200,000.
In which case I would kindly inform them that I would be delighted - please show me some minimal information that indeed the clicks were fraudulent.
Bad advice. The above would be a clear breech of the conditions of the individual premium publisher agreement the person has signed (we don't know the specifics of that particular agreement, but I'd bet on it).
The worst case scenario is google decides to sue for breech of contract and ask for far more than the 200k, which would certainly be reasonable and justifiable in a court of law.
Unilaterally breaking a contract like this means you basically hand the other "side" a new set of even better bullets to put in the gun they can shoot you with.
More info is really needed.....I'm sorry but 50% click fraud? Doesn't sound right.....
heyday
If so does this mean sites with large scale teen audience / multiple page views / same visitors day after day could cause problems for webmasters using the Adsense model
Even if this was the case - does this give Google the right to demand money back? Shouldn't this be a clear case for SmartPricing? People click often but do not convert = Smart Pricing takes care of that.
Or, to bring up a real-world example, if the media agency of an awesome car manufacturer places an ad in a youth magazine -- should the magazine be responsible for the ads not converting (not leading to sales)? I don't think so.
But as I said before - the idea outlined by the OP is strange, and I think the overwhelming majority of WW members do not need to be scared. :-)
Being 200 grand though, what I would do is pull adsense from my site, put another advertiser on there, and go talk to a lawyer ASAP. We can speculate all we want, but have no idea exactly what the law is in this case. Wait to talk to google until your lawyer has reviewed everything and tells you what to do (or what not to do).
BTW, even if 50% of clicks were fraudulent, that would generally mean that google made $0, not that they were in the negative. We'd have to see exactly what percentage google kept, but if it's about 50% which sounds about right, then if they paid a publisher double what they should have, that means they basically paid out 100% of their profit instead of 50%. If it's a failure on their end, I think they should eat it. If it's a failure on the publisher's end (say, he asked users to click ads, which I don't think is the case here) then they should repay. If it's somewhere in the middle...that's a bit more muddy. If I were google, I would split the difference, and take out 10-20K a month if they stayed in the program.
I would pull my Google Adsense immediately.
Don't do this. Business - good business is built on relationships. Go online and catch the next flight to San Jose / San Francisco and meet with the team personally. You are a premium client to Google. Show them that they are to you as well. Take them to lunch, dinner, etc. Work out the issues. Find the problem, come to a solution and then move forward.
I did this year's ago with a company that is one of Google's main competitors and it turned the situation from being negative to one that was one of the best moves of my career.
It is true ... an email beats a fax .... a phone call beats an email. But nothing beats a f-t-f meeting. Nothing. Do this with a clear understanding of what you want to accomplish and then see to it that it is.
I wish you the best in the resolve of this issue.
CaboWabo
If you do that without knowing the source of the invalid clicks, whoever you join will encounter the same problem.
Not necessarily. If the OP joins a program that offers fixed fee ads, the account will be much less vulnerable to "invalid" clicks. Also, if there was an attack, the attackers may be less likely to return, considering that the site will most likely be under close scrutiny.
If so does this mean sites with large scale teen audience / multiple page views / same visitors day after day could cause problems for webmasters using the Adsense modelIf so where does this leave the Myspace deal
Any site with a large base of nonconverting, but periodic traffic can cause problems for publishers. At the very least, smartpricing could kick into effect. MySpace is already recognized (on some blogs and web biz news sites) as problematic for these reasons.
More info is really needed.....I'm sorry but 50% click fraud? Doesn't sound right.....
The Tuzhilin report notes that even though overall click fraud may be low, an individual advertiser can be the victim of a concerted attack and experience substantial fraud. (By extension, publishers featuring that advertiser's ads would be victims as well.)
Sound advise.
First let me answer a few questions that some members have raised.
I have not, nor have I ever attempted, to rip Google off. I was a forklift truck driver for B&Q, and over the course of a year, earnt more money than I could ever of dreamt of, just by putting an advert on my page. I left my job and concerntrated on the site full-time. It would of been very, very stupid of me to jeopardise mine and my families future by messing around with Google, infact, if not for Google, I would have been making probably 1% of what I make without the changes and help they gave me. I thank Google to this day for giving me that opportunity.
I have never, in my whole time of being a Google premium publisher been made to sign or agree to any extra special terms with regards to adverts, CTRs, CPM etc... The only agreement made was not to discuss some of the premium features available to me, this I have not done.
I have been smartpriced in the last 6 months, causing quite painful results. Fortunately with the help of my Rep, this was sorted, (whilst the supposed 'invalid clicks' were occuring?) and I believe our conversion rate pleased google, and advertisers, as it seems I haven't been smartpriced since. (This could possibly be the reason? Perhaps I was supposed to be smartpriced?)
Some of you raise some very important points that I had not even considered at first. The 30 day 'checking' period makes perfect sense to me, to think they can then 'go back' and re-check everything uneases me. How far can they go back? Is this something they do to everyone? Why was it not detected earlier and alerted to me? Only google knows this, and as we all know, they are quite reluctant when it comes to details!
You'd think with the numbers involved, there would be a little bit more transparancy.
I intend (and hope?!) to stay with Google Adsense, because quite honestly, they've treated me really well, given me some breaks, and helped me to help myself! However, I understand that bringing this out in a public forum was perhaps not the wisest move I've made, and I would fully expect Google to not want to co-operate with me anymore, which would be a shame, as if you disclude the $200,000k of invalid clicks, I've made over $600,000, and you would assume Google have made a fair whack, and hopefully so have some Advertisers with product sales as a result of advertising on my site.
Anyway, I think until the matter is sorted, this thread should probably be locked or deleted.
It would appear that you trusted your rep a little too much on ad placement and blending.
Just because they tell you to do something doesn't mean the invalid clicks guys know anything about it. or, when you are reviewed by a human that the Reps method is sanctioned by Google.
Use your own gut feeling instincts when advised to make changes by the rep who probably skates too near the flame and doesn't realy care who gets burned.
I'm sure you have already MyGen, but really, you should be on the phone with your GoogleRep daily about this, and friendly, at least at first.
My advice remains that if they don't come around, turn to Yahoo! and save your future earnings. Don't have an unwarranted sense of loyalty to Google; you've seen first hand and read first hand accounts here on WW that they don't have any loyalty to their publishers. At the drop of the hat they'll claw back $200,000. If they do that to you, I am fairly certain they'd be very willing to ban you when they're done collecting. Please think about that.
It's just business.
Perhaps you should be A/B'ing Google with Y! at a very minimum.
Good luck.
[edited by: RonS at 1:57 pm (utc) on Nov. 23, 2006]
Also all my attempts to contact google have fallen on deaf ears, I was never given a number, and google are about as quick as replying to e-mails as the brighton zimmer-frame relay race team!
Given the kind of income you get and being a premium publisher, it's just a little weird that your contact with them is one way -- we call you but you don't call us.
The 30 day 'checking' period makes perfect sense to me, to think they can then 'go back' and re-check everything uneases me. How far can they go back?
This is something that's upsets me the most...
Let's say you really have a financial strategy. You're combining Adsense, Adwords, Linkbuying, Contentwriting etc.
Every month/year you state a budget for the execution of your strategy...
The budget will be based on a logical forecast of your future earnings and an evaluation of you previous earnings...
You allready payed for some stuff (f.i. content, traffic for 3 months, etc.) and all of a sudden a big chunk of your previous earned income is gone or not valid anymore, even more, your forseen income is gone...
How, in God's name, can you run a decent business then?
It's indeed true, Google doesn't invest enough in their publishers... I can understand that Google interest goes to the premium publishers who make more then 10K, but I still feel that they should try to help the little publishers also and help those publishers evolve to premium publishers...
The premium publishers were once an adsensedwarf too...
Just my two cents...
...I still feel that they should try to help the little publishers also and help those publishers evolve to premium publishers...
I am not a premium publisher but am getting close. I notified AdSense support about suspicious activity, specifically an abnormally high CTR on one specific page (channel). On Monday of this week I received a timely and reassuring email from them. It would be very disturbing if they reached back before the current month to make an adjustment but it would also be best for the AdSense program in the long run assuring advertisers that their money is well spent.
This form of advertising is in its infancy and will likely get MUCH BIGGER in the coming years. I will suffer whatever is necessary to remain in on the ground floor. Print and broadcast advertising are all but moribund, PPC is the future. A very bright future for those who ride out the bumps.
If he closed his account immediately, stopped showing adsense adverts, I wonder whether they would legally be able to recoup? Anyone?
yeah, assumed that he doesnt't join in the suggestion, the only way to get the money back for google is to sue. does anyone really think they would do it? and that they would succeed? bring it on, google!
mygen in his original post:
However, they then go on to tell me that my account is in good standing and they look forward to my continued participation in the program.
they state to you that you are innocent! fraud detection is their field of duties. who is to say that you are permitted to continue participation in their program when you have brougt in your debt after months of working non-profit?
BUT!
Can you really find anything that pays more than Adsense (even after subtracting the click fraud amounts) with your demographics?
no, he can't! take the 200,000 or continue with:
- either a prospect of earning a multipe in a long-standing relationship with the currently only efficient advertising program in the whole world
- or being dumped as soon as bringing in his debt
this is a really really tricky one. unsecure 200,000 or unsecure long-term participation..
MyGen, how are you going to feel about such a decision in a year? In two years? In five years? You still need more information about what happened and what Google is intending to do about it, but IMO you should work it out with Google as best you can.
If you can get them to say that they don't consider the invalid clicks were your fault and that they won't ban you once the money is recovered, that's your best-case scenario.
What makes matter more interesting is, over the last 5 months Google have paid out $386k to me,
You are a very lucky guy, MyGen... :)
p/g
1. Stop posting on this thread, regardless of what the other posters (including me) say.
2. Don't get a Lawyer, and don't threaten one. It's not time and it sounds like your a loyal partner to Google. Loyal partners don't run to court right off the bat every time a dispute pops up. My wife and kids and I would live in Court if that was the case.
3. IMHO, the best advice you've been given so far is to have a face-to-face meeting. Get their phone number. If they won't give it to you in email, then sticky a couple of the posters here that say they've been given one and ask them if they could give it to you. Once you have the phone number, call your rep, explain the situation, explain that you want to stay with Google, and that you'd like to fly out there and take them to lunch or dinner to discuss this situation and the future stronger and better partnership. Offer the lunch or dinner, do not ask for a meeting during working hours with them. It's much, much easier to get a meeting with them this way, not because you're buying, but because it's easier for them to meet with someone off hours. Scheduling an official, during work hours, meeting is much much harder to accomplish, even if the Google employee wants to.
4. During the meeting and in all communications, remind them of the partnership (in a good positive way) and let them know how strong you want to keep it growing, but during the meeting, let them know in order for you to make it stronger, you really need to know how the current situation came to exist, and for the current partnership to survive, they cannot allow the current situation to put you under. Let them know you can take a bruise or scrape, but if they cut off limbs, you (and the partnership) may not last.
5. Continue the periodic meetings, whether by phone or in person, keep talking. You're in the big leagues now. You really need to understand that. It sounds like you have (at least the revenue part), but didn't understand the other work involved, and you both need to keep talking about issues other than optimizing ads.
6. And finally, once again, read step 2. Once you talk to a lawyer, the lawyers won't let you do steps 3-5. They do it with a very different agenda.
IMHO, the best advice you've been given so far is to have a face-to-face meeting.
I second this. This is what I would do if it happened to me. The cost of the plane ticket will be offset by the impression of seriousness that a visit would make.
But don't go off half cocked, bring some logs, a laptop with access, and by all means, try to make an appointment first.
