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Panda and Penguin NOT In Real Time

     
5:01 pm on May 13, 2015 (gmt 0)

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A new article from Barry Schwartz has cleared the confusion on whether Penguin and Panda are run in the real time or not. Here is the link to the article:

Google: Panda & Penguin Are In Real Time But Still Require Manual Data Updates
12th of May 2015
https://www.seroundtable.com/google-panda-penguin-real-time-data-manual-20283.html [seroundtable.com]

Having read the article, the TL;DR is that Panda and Penguin are NOT in real time.

The fact that Google collects the data in real time is neither here nor there. But the ranking update process (re-calculation) based on the data collected is apparently initiated manually.

All this together says that Panda and Penquin are not happening real time and that unless the update process has been initiated and run, there will be no changes in ranking.

Which is not the same as what the real-time would be: "I changed the page, the page has been recrawled, site re-weighted and the ranking adjusted" ( = real time).

The recent Barry's post sucessfully cleared the confusion we discussed in this thread from March:
Google Panda - Instant Real Time (Or Perhaps Not) ? [webmasterworld.com]

Thank you Barry!
5:17 pm on May 13, 2015 (gmt 0)

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So Panda and Penguin are not in real time because ...
5:21 pm on May 13, 2015 (gmt 0)

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It is probably because it needs all data collected and re-calculated looking at the site as a whole.

My guess would be that it is too much for Google to re-calculate (re-weigh) the site as a whole every time a page changes. They probably take a snapshot of the site data and use that to do this manually initiated update which re-evaluate the whole site from Panda and Penguin angles.
5:35 pm on May 13, 2015 (gmt 0)

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Funny that it took this long for Google to provide clarity.

And, of course, no reason provided as to why the data hasn't been updated in months. Assuming the algorithm is useful, and in good shape, stale data isn't good for anyone other than spammers and/or new, low quality sites.
5:58 pm on May 13, 2015 (gmt 0)

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It's been known for some time that recovery would require a re-run of the index to accept the updates and changes.

What is discouraging for many webmasters is when they make all the required changes they remain penalised for way longer than is necessary.

Come on Google, do the right thing and re-run.
6:46 pm on May 13, 2015 (gmt 0)

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I've been blowing up one site, but not knowing in the meantime how Panda is being run. I appreciate the clarity. I mean I could keep on blowing things up because of no ranking changes, but this will save me some demolition time. Therefore, we are all waiting.....when was the last Panda or is this a big gray area now?
7:02 pm on May 13, 2015 (gmt 0)

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@supercyberbob Panda is not updated in real time because then it would be too easy to game the system. Pandalized sites would just have to increase and decrease the number of thin pages slowly until they find the threshold, and then produce thin content right up to the threshold without going over it.

By making a long delay between the action and the recovery, Google removes our ability to observe carefully the cause and effect, and draw conclusions from it about what works and what doesn't.
7:20 pm on May 13, 2015 (gmt 0)

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gesher Your first post was a reply to me? Aww, hugs.

In case any of you missed it, Panda was refreshed (and even updated, omg) pretty regularly until about the end of last year.

[seroundtable.com...]
[twitter.com...]
[seroundtable.com...]

Gotta love the quote from Gary Illyes at SMX West (March of this year), who said panda happens "pretty much instantly".

There you have it folks, Panda is in real time, but not.

Also, Google pays corporate taxes, but not. :) :) :)
7:37 pm on May 13, 2015 (gmt 0)

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Welcome to WebmasterWorld gesher

Google removes our ability to observe carefully the cause and effect, and draw conclusions from it about what works and what doesn't.


I assume that was tongue in cheek? :-)
8:20 pm on May 13, 2015 (gmt 0)

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@supercyberbob @RedBar Thanks. You know, long time listener, first time caller.

@supercyberbob I didn't miss that Panda used to be refreshed/updated frequently (I was working on sites that benefited tremendously from it). But that doesn't detract from my theory: if the Panda filter stays relatively constant, and its data is refreshed monthly, then large sites with millions+ forum threads, directory pages, comment permalinks, SKUs or whatever can just adjust their indexation controls up and down until they find the right balance between indexing as much as possible without being caught in the filter.

Maybe Google was willing to tolerate this for the roughly one year that Panda was being refreshed a lot, because they were fine-tuning the filter to reduce false positives as much as possible (or they just gave up fine-tuning and white listed some important domains). Maybe now they've got it to a level that they find acceptable, so they're reverting to their preferred strategy of not letting SEOs reverse engineer their valuable trade secrets.

With respect to Mr. Illyes, I'm sure he's very good at his job, but he's got a well documented history of making statements that don't pan out, so there's no way he should be allowed to continue commenting on sensitive matters in public.

@RedBar Not tongue in cheek. I'm sure you agree that Google doesn't want us to figure out what works (by the way, I believe there are some Bill Slawski blog posts about how Google could delay the effects of algorithm changes in order to confuse SEOs).
9:15 pm on May 13, 2015 (gmt 0)

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gesher I agree with you for the most part.

They've been obfuscating the Jebus out of algo updates for a long time now.

Most recent example - the May Phantom Update + the (Phantom) Mobile Algo launch.

[webmasterworld.com...]

*&%
1:58 am on May 14, 2015 (gmt 0)

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John Mueller started this whole thing when he was pulling information out of his *&!%. I don't know why you all expected this "real time" nonsense to actually be true... my recycle bin also works in "real time", except I still have to empty it to free up hard drive space.

[edited by: aakk9999 at 10:57 am (utc) on May 14, 2015]

3:40 pm on May 14, 2015 (gmt 0)

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I don't know why you all expected this "real time" nonsense to actually be true
with regards to John Mueller comment (at webmaster central hang out on Google plus) that real time is not working and there has been no Panda update in 2015, I believe this to be true based on my observations. No one has contradicted this with evidence that there has.

(My site was late to catch onto all this Panda/Penguin of 4 years a go and I believe there has to be a refresh at some point)
4:12 pm on May 14, 2015 (gmt 0)

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I think the confusion stems from the fact that "the data" can have different meanings.

Based on the context of what has been said, I'd assume that "the data" refers to Panda or Penguin scores or adjustment factors that are applied to the real-time ranking process.
5:24 pm on May 14, 2015 (gmt 0)

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What is discouraging for many webmasters is when they make all the required changes they remain penalised for way longer than is necessary.

Come on Google, do the right thing and re-run.


That is a solid reason to not manipulate.

What is discouraging to hear is a webmaster saying we did this for 10 years... and then complain that even 1 year is too long (to reverse the playing fair part).
5:38 pm on May 14, 2015 (gmt 0)

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That is a solid reason to not manipulate.

Google refusing to run the refresh is also a solid reason to churn/burn and fill 'da interwebs with garbage.

Cuts both ways.
6:04 pm on May 14, 2015 (gmt 0)

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Google refusing to run the refresh is also a solid reason to churn/burn and fill 'da interwebs with garbage.

Cuts both ways.


Not really... that part is actually real time!
6:19 pm on May 14, 2015 (gmt 0)

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Not really... that part is actually real time!

That's not at all how I read the latest comments. I read it as "scored real time, into a datastore that we push out, manually, from time to time". How would "fresh scores" for one website be held until a manual data push, and not held for some other (churn/burn) site?

edit: changed "manual action" to "manual data push" to avoid that dual-meaning word
6:43 pm on May 14, 2015 (gmt 0)

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That's not at all how I read the latest comments. I read it as "scored real time, into a datastore that we push out, manually, from time to time". How would "fresh scores" for one website be held until a manual action, and not held for some other (churn/burn) site?


Not commenting on the article or quotes that are for specific questions. Every day new websites report they lost results that doesn't coincide with Google's announced re-RUNs.

...surely if you ask Google a different question you'll get a different answer... e.g.

Can PENGUIN devalue my domain even if a reRUN never occurred?

Clearly if you didn't ask this question... Google never responded to it.

In theory, Google's main algorithm scores pages and PENGUIN isn't the main algorithm so what is PENGUIN actually scoring? ..."all sites" or only websites it previously devalued.
7:04 pm on May 14, 2015 (gmt 0)

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I don't think it would make sense to score just new pages. Even if it did, it just allows for a new strategy.

Also, Panda is in play here as well. What's the value of holding Panda afflicted websites hostage? There's not necessarily a strong tie between Panda affliction and bad intent.
7:20 pm on May 14, 2015 (gmt 0)

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I don't think it would make sense to score just new pages. Even if it did, it just allows for a new strategy.


Pages implies domains devalued, not domains not devalued.

Also, Panda is in play here as well. What's the value of holding Panda afflicted websites hostage? There's not necessarily a strong tie between Panda affliction and bad intent.


That could all be true but you are still asking the wrong question.

Can PENGUIN only reach out and touch me during a re-RUN?

Your current belief suggests it can only act {at all} on a reRUn and not a push and I say that assumption is wrong.

[edited by: fathom at 7:25 pm (utc) on May 14, 2015]

7:25 pm on May 14, 2015 (gmt 0)

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I don't believe Panda is part real time. There is plenty of syndication going on that is not being picked up by Panda. I an show this with some URL's but need to gather more data to be evidence based.

@fathom
Can PENGUIN devalue my domain even if a reRUN never occurred?
No. I am sure the masses of data provided publicly would be enough evidence of this.

@Rish3
Google refusing to run the refresh
They are not refusing. I work with complex systems and to do a release is a massive effort and Google have had other much higher priority releases to push out this year such as the the massive mobile update.

@fathom
That is a solid reason to not manipulate.
careful not everyone is manipulating. I had permission granted to publish our editors articles from printed newspapers (impossible to spot without doing a search with quotes) who a year later put them on their website and then waked by bamboo.

[edited by: Johan007 at 7:34 pm (utc) on May 14, 2015]

7:30 pm on May 14, 2015 (gmt 0)

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They are not refusing. I work with complex systems and to do a release is a massive effort and Google have had other much higher priority releases to push out this year such as the the massive mobile update.

They did it roughly once a month for quite some time, then stopped.
7:36 pm on May 14, 2015 (gmt 0)

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They did it roughly once a month for quite some time, then stopped.

Rish3 exactly, during that time there was only Panda, Penguin and the odd Hummingbird right? The mobile update and doorway page requires allot more involvement.
8:03 pm on May 14, 2015 (gmt 0)

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That is a solid reason to not manipulate.

careful not everyone is manipulating. I had permission granted to publish our editors articles from printed newspapers (impossible to spot without doing a search with quotes) who a year later put them on their website and then waked by bamboo.


There is a sliver of info missing here.

Multiple websites can have to same thing published but guaranteed NOT being ranked at #1 in a field of 62,800 results isn't a penalty.

re: Constitution for the United States [google.com]

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings ..."


Something is missing?
8:29 pm on May 14, 2015 (gmt 0)

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Oy. In the same way that many of you get fed up with the tin foil hattery, I'm feeling it on the Google apologist angle.

The bottom line is that if Panda/Penguin are good, leaving them with stale data is bad.

The idea that it's ok to leave them stale because they are busy with other work is just silly to me. They knew, all along, that they would need fresh data to work correctly. I assume they had choices about how much to invest in making them automated and easy to update.
8:46 pm on May 14, 2015 (gmt 0)

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I don't believe results are stale simply because someone wants to play fair now or wants to start not playing fair again.

If the risks of losing the rewards aren't at least equal to the rewards themselves there is no incentive to playing fair.
3:13 pm on May 15, 2015 (gmt 0)

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I don't believe results are stale simply because someone wants to play fair now or wants to start not playing fair again.


If I read it right, you think that stale data would only affect the ability of a "bad site" to recover. If, so, then I would agree with your statement above. I'm of the mind that it cuts both ways, and allows new bad sites to rank well...and perhaps allows great content to languish. I don't see how either of those is good for the end user.
4:15 pm on May 15, 2015 (gmt 0)

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I don't think that.

Clearly if I waited for a Penguin re-RUN and only then started my link webspam I would have a 7-month window (today) to prosper given Google's current schedule.

There is more than enough evidence to support PENGUIN can nail you on any date you simply can't recover until they reRUN. Just because there isn't a massive outcry does not mean there isn't a steady stream of new cries.
7:34 am on May 16, 2015 (gmt 0)

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@fathom,

You've stated you are using redirected expired domains to rank under the concept it is "safe". Conceptually I have no issue with that. But when you say "you simply can't recover until they reRUN" it seems like you have inside information. If you have inside Google information, please feel free to share. There is always a steady stream of new cries on this forum, but that really doesn't mean much. I'd like to see some documentation on your "you simply can't recover until they reRUN" concept.
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