How Special is Your Website?

[TheMadScientist]

People seem to be totally confused about the new quality piece for Google's algo, and I wonder how 'special' the sites of those who used to rank and no longer do really are?

How many sites do you run?

How many sites do: Amazon, eBay, Twitter, FaceBook, WikiPedia, and all the other big players run? Now, again, how special is your website, really? Is it so special you only need one?

I only work on 5 right now, only run 4 of them, of the ones I run 1 is for a separate business, 1 is personal, and 2 are sites I can concentrate on basically full time, 1 of which is noindexed ... How many do you run?

Do you have the latest word press installed? It's a dime-a-dozen piece of software. Nothing special about WP ... Do you have the newest directory software on all of them? How many other people do too? How about eCommerce? Do you have the latest osCommerce or Zen Cart installed with friendly URLs? You and how many 1000s of other people?

Really, sit down and look at your site(s) and ask yourself how special it is when you compare it to the sites the 'big players' build ... Is it close? Is it really the quality of the highest caliber?

None of the sites I saw listed on Google's report a quality site wrongly demoted page were anything 'special' to the point where I thought I would really be missing out if they weren't included in the results ... Not one.

I see so many 'nothing special' sites out there I don't know what people are actually complaining about and I really wonder how honest their evaluation of their own sites is?

If you're wondering why you might not rank like you used to, imo you might do well to sit down, really look at your site, and ask yourself, what makes my site special?

Forget about other people's sites and the sites out ranking yours and trying to chase the algo for another round, and sit and ask yourself what makes your site special and then: what could I do better?

[wyweb]

@TheMadScientist

You didn't copy something someone else was doing ... You did something before it caught on ... You were an originator, not a follower or a re-doer ... IMO that's a bit of 'specialness' relating to your sites.

Yeah, I was there first. I don't copy anybody's stuff but I was around long before they were. But they geared up and put out a better product than I had. They smoked me so I went to work for them. On commission basis. It gave me an edge in rankings but that seems to be bleeding off too.

[wyweb]

Nice thread.. I'll have more to say...

[TheMadScientist]

But they geared up and put out a better product than I had.

Fascinating ... Definitely inline with the point of this thread.

I'll have more to say...

I look forward to it...

[wyweb]

@TheMadScientist

why would it be a good decision for Google to rank Mom & Pop's website above the Amazon's, eBay's, Sears', etc? IMO it wouldn't...

I don't know. That's proprietary information that's worth billions of dollars. Or maybe ga-zillions... LOL..

I'd rank Mom & Pop's website higher if I had the ability. I'm a sucker for the small guy though. I'm a small guy myself.

Why shouldn't they be ranked higher? They may well have a better product.

[dickbaker]

Wow. A lot of posts since I went to bed last night.

You state: "I offer detailed ads for widget stores that are searchable by brands of widgets and accessories they carry, as well as services and other things they offer."

In my opinion, that's something I'd expect to find on any site offering a product or service. Where's the aspect that makes you unique in the world of widgets and accessories?

No, it's not something you would find on any site offering a product or service. It was (still is) a unique service. In 2003 I noticed that there were sites for golf courses in states or areas of the country that allowed users to locate a course near them, then drill down to get all sorts of detailed information that they were looking for.

I thought it would be something that would work for retail stores in my niche. I checked to see if there was anything like it for stores or other types of businesses in my niche, and there weren't. Sure, there were lists of retail stores in directories with store's names, cities, states, and phone numbers, but that was pretty much it. If you were lucky there was a sentence about a store that said, "we're the best".

I created a database-driven site where the owners could write (or I usually ended up writing) full page ads that were completely searchable by brands of widgets sold, types of widgets sold, services offered, types of facilities offered, etc. There's over a hundred different things that users can search for, in addition to models of widgets.

It was unique enough that two industry trade magazines did fairly extensive articles about the site, as it was something new and they were intrigued.

Does that sound "special" to you? I'm not being defensive about my site. I know it has problems, but I really believe that the idea is/was unique, but my problem is that I've strayed from the uniqueness of the content. The spec's and photos of the widgets themselves are similar to what you'd find on an ecommerce site selling these widgets (although nobody seems to be asking those ecommerce sites to be "special").

[TheMadScientist]

Why shouldn't they be ranked higher? They may well have a better product.

Because rankings are not about the product, per se, but rather about the expectations and desires of Google's end users, and imo when there is a 'safe' option (iow major source) it is a wiser decision to rank the 'safer' option more highly in the results ... Using the shopping example, if Google ranked Mom & Pop above major retailers and Mom & Pop failed to deliver would searchers be inclined to use Google as frequently?

Google is about Google's users, not individuals websites or even fairness to web site owners and to retain those users they have to provide what the users perceive as the best results, not what a webmaster perceives as 'the best answer' and imo there's a big difference in the perception of what site owners put out and what end users are comfortable with, or 'impressed' by.

The statistic I've read are it takes 9 times on average for a person to see a product in a store before they purchase; online that number rises to 23 ... I think I have my numbers correct, just think it's 2.5x to 3x greater 'views before purchase' when you compare the Internet to B & M ... There is an inherent level of discomfort and distrust with the Internet, imo, and for a search engine to be successful, imo, it's prudent to provide the 'safest' and 'known' choices to their end users.

[netmeg]

I have a lot of sites I have to look after, both for me and for clients. My main resource limitation is time.

My criteria for how much time I spend on a site is "Does the world really need this?"

I might still leave it up, and occasionally do some work on it if the answer is no, but I won't devote much time or money, nor have any expectations of long term success.

I will no longer take on a client site if the answer is no, and I'm certainly not putting up any new sites where the answer is no. If I can't look at a niche and see where I can do it significantly *better* than what's already out there (including big brands), then jumping in is not a good use of my time.

The primary reason I have yet to put a real personal site of my own up, after all these years (and having the domains since 1994) is that every time I ask myself "Does the world really need this?" the answer is still no.

I have a couple sites where the answer is an emphatic yes, and I spend a lot of time on those (and expanding on the idea) Nobody else is crazy enough to do it, so I gotta.

[wyweb]

@TheMadScientist

Using the shopping example, if Google ranked Mom & Pop above major retailers and Mom & Pop failed to deliver would searchers be inclined to use Google as frequently?

No. Good point.

I just woke up. Let me read some more and I'll get back in here...

[wyweb]

@TheMadScientist

Using the shopping example, if Google ranked Mom & Pop above major retailers and Mom & Pop failed to deliver would searchers be inclined to use Google as frequently?

From my own personal experiences. And this is just me.

Mom & Pops deliver better than Fortune 500s. There's more at risk. A major player can blow you off and it doesn't matter. The hit they'll take financially won't even register.

Every Mom & Pop I've ever dealt with, and I've put a lot of them online myself, has been seriously concerned about customer support. This is how they're making a living and they want you to have a good experience. They'll go out of their way to make sure it happens.

The big boys will put you on hold for 2 hours and then give you some canned response.

Which would you prefer? Someone who answers the phone immediately and corrects your problem, or at least promises you they will, or push one for customer support, push two for billing options, push three or technical support, push four to check your account balance, push five for new service...

LOL... Push THIS.

[TheMadScientist]

But, it's not what you and I have experienced, it's about the expectation of the end user of Google, many of whom type the name of their favorite website into Google so they can click the link to get there ... I think too often we look at 'our view' of the web and web sites and not enough from the general public's view ... I have a business partner on some of the sites I work on ... When he told his Dad about the sites the reply he got was: "sounds like a scam" ... That's much closer to the 'real world' view of the web I've experienced ... It may not be the response we're looking for, or even a correct view, but it is the view of many, and imo quite likely many more than view 'Mom & Pop' as the 'safe choice' for buying online, whether they are 'right or wrong' is another story, but Google's results have to serve the majority, and what that majority feels comfortable with.

We don't necessarily disagree on whether Mom & Pop is a better choice, but should Google rank them above major retailers or not? I have my doubts ... Ranking Mom & Pop above major retailer's shifts the blame from the retailer to Google IMO ... If Wal-Mart fails to deliver, that's Wal-Mart's fault, but if Mom & Pop line the top ten results and fail to deliver, Google will probably bear the brunt of the disgruntlement 'for making the recommendation' as well as the disgruntlement toward the Mom & Pop site.

Which is a better, safer choice for Google to rank?
IMO it's the major retailer.

[wyweb]

You type fast.. and I have to lay down again.

I can only sit for a few hours.

It's my back. It's totally screwed up.

[TheMadScientist]

Sorry to hear about your back ... Take it easy and drop back by when you can.

[netmeg]

My 80 yr old mother has been trained* by now to go straight to Amazon. For everything. Books, yard equipment, microwave oven, spices. She doesn't even try looking around anymore.

I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people just like her.

*trained by Amazon Prime and experience, not by me

[wyweb]

@TheMadScientist

Which is a better, safer choice for Google to rank?

Yeah, the major retailer.

I'll have to go with you on this one, even though I don't like it. It's reality though.

I just wanted to plug Mom & Pops a little bit. If they're local, as in my own city, I'll go with them every time. Some of the best finds are in the small shops.

I'm already aware of what Amazon can do for me. The small shops can surprise me with bargains and I like that.

[wyweb]

@TheMadScientist

but I am trying to chase the algo.

How about trying to get ahead of it

The algo. You're talking about getting ahead of what the search monsters want?

You have to come with something so totally new and so totally desired that everybody wants a piece of it. If you want to make money anyway.

Yeah, you can get ahead of algo. You better be original though. Throwing the same stuff at them won't work. There's too many people doing that already.

[Dan01]

True, enough, and with the avenues for sales you mention, why would it be a good decision for Google to rank Mom & Pop's website above the Amazon's, eBay's, Sears', etc? IMO it wouldn't...

I think that is a good point. There are a couple things that SEs want at the top of the SERPS - authority and trust.

Trust

When you are transferring funds from your checking account to someone else, you want trust. With feedback posted in comments, eBay and Amazon rank well. Sears, Payless Shoes etc rank good too because you can take the products back to the store. Also, the business is well established.

I think that is a primary concern. Obviously, if eBay didn't have the bells-n-whistles, they might not be trusted too.

Authority

Lets say you have a medical condition. Do you go to a surgeon? Perhaps, but he will likely recommend surgery. But what if proton beams are better?

The authority doesn't have a vested interest. Perhaps a forum is best (of all things :) )

Personally, I think Adsense sites can be better authority than sites use affiliate programs for specific products. There is no vested interest because the content creator has no idea what ads are going to appear. Meanwhile, the sites that get paid for a specific performance may have a vested interest. They will want to steer readers into the products they make money from.

Is the government the best authority? Sometimes, but even they can have a vested interest. For years the Department of Agriculture promoted a food pyramid that favored some ag sectors.

Many people don't trust the FDA and believe they are bought off. Others don't trust Wikipedia because of misinformation.

Goodness - this turned out to be a long post. :)

The bottom line: I don't know how to fit that into a algorithm. :) I guess not applying too much weight to government sites is good.

[wyweb]

@meg

My 80 yr old mother has been trained* by now to go straight to Amazon. For everything. Books, yard equipment, microwave oven, spices. She doesn't even try looking around anymore.

And I've seen that also. My mother is the same way. She'll also call me up in the middle of the day on Tuesday and swear she has a virus. I'll drive clear across town and look at it and all she's done is lock it up. Everything's frozen.

Me: "Mom, shut it down and reboot"

Mom: "How do I do that? The computer won't shut off."

Me: "Pull the dang plug. Kill the power."

She's still running win 98 on a less than adequate machine.

I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people just like her.

There are.

My entire family fits in that category.

[netmeg]

My mother is actually quite computer savvy and has purchased quite a bit online for years. My point was that she's shifted all her activity to Amazon because it's so easy - one click, free shipping, and they carry everything under the sun and deliver it in two days. It's changed the way she purchases. It's changed it for a lot of people. Hard for a Mom & Pop, however special, to compete with that, cause when people see Amazon at the top of the SERPS, that's the name they trust.

I wonder if the old 19th century general stores felt the same way about Sears & Roebuck?

[wyweb]

@netmeg

and they carry everything under the sun and deliver it in two days

Mom & Pops can get it to you in 2 days also. You may have to pay a little extra for it but it can be done. They can get it to you overnight if you want. Next day service.

Hard for a Mom & Pop, however special, to compete with that.

I support Mom & Pops okay? But I'm strange. I do stuff like that. I'm fully aware of trust factors, brand recognition, confidence factors in purchasing online. I know the whole book.

If you're in my town and you have a website online, I'll buy from you. Unless your prices are just absolutely ridiculous.

I'm sorry I got off topic. I get carried away sometimes.

[wyweb]

@Dan01

Lets say you have a medical condition. Do you go to a surgeon? Perhaps, but he will likely recommend surgery. But what if proton beams are better?

Get a second opinion.

I've been in and out of the hospital for the last 12 years. Motorcycle wreck in Huntsville, Alabama. Full dress Honda Goldwing and I laid her down and went right through a barb wire fence. I was in the hospital for a month and then it was another year before I could walk with any resemblance to normal.

Is the government the best authority?

NO. Absolutely not. You mentioned vested interests. ALL governments have vested interests.

It's what they do.

[koan]

So now the web is reduced to being some mega shopping mall like the uninspiring super highway concept of the early 90's controlled by big companies? How would current popular web sites have gotten their start if all people could find were the old stalwarts web sites of the day? I like a search engine that helps me find hidden, innovative indie gems with some degree of originality, not become some boring yahoo-like portal that keeps me within a circle of related big media sites that buy their way into first page. That's old media style.

[wyweb]

Sometimes it boils down to word of mouth as well.

Most of us are professionals. We're all over the web and we know where the good stuff is. We know where to find the best prices on anything. We know where things are at.

Quite a bit of the population doesn't though. They're clueless.

Jane tells John she got a great book online from Amazon and if John wants that book he'll probably go there too.

That's word of mouth

He's motivated by her experience with Amazon and now he's moving with it.

The bigger you are, the more you get talked about.

He probably could have bought the same book at Barnes & Noble for less though.

[TheMadScientist]

So now the web is reduced to being some mega shopping mall like the uninspiring super highway concept of the early 90's controlled by big companies?

From a 'defeated' pov, yes, from a 'challenging' pov, it's becoming a question of how to overcome what appears it has to be a logical, prudent bias on the part of search engines ... If you don't want to be reduced to local, that is.

wyweb might be on to something with this:

Sometimes it boils down to word of mouth as well.

Interestingly, John Mu said something parallel in a recent quote:

...happy users come back and recommend your site to their friends!

The full quote can be found in the Google Update [webmasterworld.com] thread [P9 @ 20 Posts Per Page]...

Which leads right back to a slightly rephrased version of my original question: Is your site 'special' enough to generate word-of-mouth traffic at a rate that exceeds the other closely related sites you're competing against?

[wyweb]

How would current popular web sites have gotten their start if all people could find were the old stalwarts web sites of the day?

They couldn't have. Thank you.

I like a search engine that helps me find hidden, innovative indie gems with some degree of originality

And I could not agree more. That's where the Mom and Pops come in

This is a complex issue and I have to agree with the OP as well. I'd rather see Mom and Pops ranked higher but we're talking about trust now, confidence about buying online, negative consequences that could come back on the search monster that sent them there to begin with.

In that sense, yes, I believe Amazon should be ranked higher. I don't like it. I'm able to see the reasoning behind it though.

[viggen]

Interestingly, John Mu said something parallel in a recent quote:
...happy users come back and recommend your site to their friends!

...well my site is used as a short cut for pupils homework or school assignement ALLOT, and i can assure you they usually dont tell their friends or they would be busted...

[wyweb]

@scientist

happy users come back and recommend your site to their friends!

Well yeah, that's sort of a given.

It's a matter of how big you are though. How much exposure you've got. How widely you are known. How many people can see you.

Nobody knows about the Mom and Pops, at least in comparison. Everybody knows Amazon though.

Your original post dealt with trust factors. I can't argue with that because you're right. I wish I could argue that but you put search engines in the picture and I had to back off. What you're saying is correct. Doesn't matter if I like it or not.

[wyweb]

@viggen

I don't have a clue as to what you just said.

[viggen]

@wyweb, well, i try again :)

Mr.happy user who in many cases is a pupil comes to my site copy and pastes our content for their homework or assignment, gets good marks, he doesnt share, even though he is happy,

[TheMadScientist]

If you look at the picture of competing with Amazon on a web-wide level, you're correct wyweb, but how about for a specific niche where Mom & Pop get more word-of-mouth exposure than Amazon gets?

IOW:
Competing with Amazon as a whole?
Probably not going to happen for Mom & Pop...

Competing with Amazon in a concentrated area for some specific terms?
I think it's doable...

...and i can assure you they usually dont tell their friends or they would be busted...

Is your site 'special' enough to generate word-of-mouth traffic at a rate that exceeds the other closely related sites you're competing against? Wouldn't the word-of-mouth rate have to be roughly equal for all sites in that niche given the circumstances?

And, I would guess some of them do share about your site occasionally...

[wyweb]

@viggen

Ahh.. okay.

I think anyway...