Forum Moderators: Robert Charlton & goodroi
- Tedster #:3699468 [webmasterworld.com...] - the most perplexing new SERP observations are those that report cycling, sine waves, yo-yo, rollercoaster, or pick your favorite synonym. sometimes these cycles happen down in the deep results pages after a url has dropped from page 1 - an apparent penalty. and sometimes the cycling appears on page one - from 3 to 10 to 3 to 10, day after day or week after week.I don't have a site under my auspices that is showing this effect, but I've been asked to look at few that are - and so far, I can say that the phenomenon is real, but am mystified by it. I felt this way when the -950 first appeared back in 2006 or so, and slowly some understanding of that has emerged. Sure hope we can get some understanding about the yo-yo phenomenon, too.
Are we seeing something new in how it's applied?
Is it a Google Glitch or intentional ?
Does it effect only site's in penalty situations?
Does it form part of new penalty handling procedures ?
Any more questions and suggestions ?
Tedster #:3708527 This is something that quite a few sites are reporting - and it often (always?) involves position #4 during the periods when the url is on the first page of the SERPs.This seems like it must be some kind of statistical testing to me. but if that's the case, how does a url get picked to be tested - and even more, how can it "pass" the test? Some urls have been on this Google yo-yo for weeks and weeks.
The yo-yo has afflicted sites that were regular fixtures on page #1. Maybe it is unusual fluctuations in backlinks that triggers the test - that's worth watching!
I'm watching a site that was penalised on May 31 & has been flying around on a key term from position 39 down to anywhere on page 7. None of the sites URL's for any previously ranked term appear above position 41.
Tedster had a theory about "let's see" and "test" , but I'm not sure that i understand what you think they may be testing.
I'm watching a site move back and forth between the 30's and the 50's for a secondary phrase and I suspect it's possibly from excessive internal anchor alt text that they put in at the top of the pages in the shopping cart.
Anyone else seeing what might be an anchor text issue?
Google has at least 4 different sets of SERPs spread across their 70+ Class-C IP blocks at the present time.
t's possibly from excessive internal anchor alt text
Marcia, if you're familiar with the page, then this would coincide with my theory. (and something that's easy to test)
but are you saying it's more than this ?
Whitey,
yes, i am, but without knowing the exact site and spending long nights studying the SERPs over the course of a few weeks and setting up a miamacs-like test, i wouldn't dare give you advice on it.
Sorry.
Like I said, the easy answer is to just get authority links. The more precise answer is to do what miamacs did and nail down the subtle tests that may or may not be permanent additions to the algo...
About 2/3 weeks back, this phrase seemed to jump from rank 15 to 4-5 and then back down again - this happened throughout the day for a few weeks, consistently up and down the serps.
Now, however, the page has completely disappeared off the planet for the same phrase? Could there be a reason for this?
[edited by: tedster at 3:18 pm (utc) on Aug. 11, 2008]
[edit reason] moved from another location [/edit]
...unless it was a holiday...
Coupled with whatever ranking problems you've had, it's very likely that overall traffic was down during the first weekend of the Olympics.
unless it was a holiday.
Across many sites I have seen a completely normal weekend and so far today has been a fairly busy Monday.
Even our Chinese sites have seen normal figures however the vast majority of Chinese are at work and not watching TV during the day.
YMMV
If you've pinned down that your traffic goes up and down because your RANKINGS are going up and down in some kind of regular pattern, then those comments belong here. Otherwise it's just a sidebar discussion that takes the thread off-topic.
6/4 - main keyword dropped from 1 to 14 and many but not all of my long tailed traffic basically disappeared (were at positions 1-3)
No ranking changes until 7/11 - during this time I reduced the links in my main navigation, but I am not sure this had any effect
7-11 to 7-14 - all previous positions returned
7-15 to 7-17 - rankings lost on same search terms
7-18 to 7-21 - all previous positions returned
7-22 to 7-26 - rankings lost again
7-27 - previous positions returned and have stayed!
16 days now and still crossing my fingers I've escaped the yo yo. I made no significant changes to my site during that time.
It definitely seemed to be a test of some kind...the positions I was watching were the same when they switched back and forth. Also, when my site came back temporarily both times it was during the weekend.
My site is #1 for my main key term again, and I find it curious that another site that was in one of the top 5 positions during my time at #14, is now holding steady at #14 (however, we dropped from different positions)!
Is it moving backwards and forwards on the same IP, or are you just seeing it on different IPs at different times?It's staying stable daily with FF at #56, and is hitting the same IP daily.
But I know there's a problem with that phrase. It's OOP for excessive misplaced anchor text in front - to the left - of the main first body text on way too many pages that are about other keyword phrases, to cross sell. It'll be a problem getting the site owner agree to changing it, unless it's clearly visible in the GA site overlay that it isn't getting enough clicks to bother.
I believe it's a ranking demotion for the phrase. OOP - phrase specific penalty; even that particular product page is over optimized, done by another party. And I believe the up and down movement is just matter of differences in the amount of demotion, or flipping the switch on and off at different data centers.
Another thought about OOP (and keyword cannibalization): if some targeted keywords are for gadgets and the site is over-optimized for widgets, one of them will suffer.
[edited by: Marcia at 6:19 am (utc) on Aug. 12, 2008]
But when a page yo-yos on and off the Home Page, the idea of weak backlinks makes lots of sense for the examples I'm watching - especially weakness in backlinks with anchor text that's related to the specific query. In other words, many other indicators that Google sees (even PR) say this URL is a good candidate for a first page position. But the anchor text indicators are not there very strongly, so it needs testing.
That's my best guess for now - possibly subject to revision tomorrow ;)
many other indicators that Google sees (even PR) say this URL is a good candidate for a first page position. But the anchor text indicators are not there very strongly
Yes, this is a very succinct and easy-to-understand way to phrase it.
Why it yo-yos is anybody's guess, since it makes almost no difference to traffic.
Which means...that it has little or nothing to do with testing "traffic/analytics/click thru patterns" yes? ;)
It doesn't when they're on the 4th or 5th page, but as tedster observed, there could well be two different effects and activities we're seeing. Down a few pages in the results traffic is a zero factor, but that isn't the case with pages that are fluctuating between spots on the first page.
that isn't the case with pages that are fluctuating between spots on the first page
Again, i disagree. If i can (and have numerous times) move a page that's yo-yo-ing from #4 to #8 (or similar) and get it to stick at #2 without improving any analytics-driven factors then even if they are testing click-thrus/analytics, it's irrelevant to the solution of eliminating that "yo-yo testing" factor.
As I've said before, analytics/user satisfaction will be a HUGE factor later on and will dramatically change SEO as we know it, but right now it isn't a strong enough factor that can't be overcome with easier solutions.
(Which is why i emphasize getting to #3 or higher... it simply just eliminates any "analytics" factors for rankings...for the time being)
edited to add: it goes without saying that i'm talking about hyper-competitive keywords where Goog (would) conduct such tests and not long-tail "niche" keywords
[edited by: whitenight at 10:26 am (utc) on Aug. 12, 2008]
and so far, I can say that the phenomenon is real, but am mystified by it. I felt this way when the -950 first appeared back in 2006 or so, and slowly some understanding of that has emerged.
When did the Yo-Yo effect first get reported ?
Has anyone claimed or heard of a site stabalising and going back to normal rankings after encountering it ?
When did the Yo-Yo effect first get reported ?
I first noticed it over a year and half ago. (see old threads i've answered) but at the time, it seemed only a very few people noticed it or asked about it on this forum
If i can (and have numerous times) move a page that's yo-yo-ing from #4 to #8 (or similar) and get it to stick at #2 without improving any analytics-driven factors then even if they are testing click-thrus/analytics, it's irrelevant to the solution of eliminating that "yo-yo testing" factor.
(Which is why i emphasize getting to #3 or higher... it simply just eliminates any "analytics" factors for rankings...for the time being)
it goes without saying that i'm talking about hyper-competitive keywords where Goog (would) conduct such tests and not long-tail "niche" keywords
As a refresher, the patent application filed in 2002:
Using Usage Statistics in Search [webmasterworld.com]
However, they are doing a HUGE amount of testing on the user interface (see the recent thread), among other things, and what they're testing may have a lot to do with that; possibly even with the effectiveness of different snippets in various spots.
[edited by: Marcia at 11:59 am (utc) on Aug. 12, 2008]
You say:
Well, for one search term a site has been fluctuating between #2 and #4, and for the other (the slightly better one, that now has Google's shopping links at #3), between #3 and #5. And the #1 and #2 sites for that search have been dancing back and forth.
In one of my most competitive industries, this has been happening since the beginning of time and i DON'T equate the normal switching of 2, 3, or 4 relatively equal sites as falling under the "yo-yo" umbrella.
This is just normal Goog activity.
Adding the "Universal Search yo-yo" to any of these types of terms EASILY explains much of this.
Then why are other sites yo-yoing that have reached #3, #2 and even #1? How come they haven't acquired immunity?
Cause they don't have the AUTHORITY to escape whatever filter/threshold they are on.
My authority pages ALWAYS escape this yo-yo-ing even if they were subject to it before.
(remember my whole argument in the position #6 threads about my sites DESERVING to be top 3? same line of thinking...not based on wishful arrogance but a deep understanding of how Goog is ranking pages at the time)
(or re-read Miamac's explanation of "ranking signals")
I'm not talking long tail either, these are absolutely the top, most desirable two phrases in the entire niche
Yea, that add-on wasn't for you but for others reading. ;)
they are doing a HUGE amount of testing on the user interface (see the recent thread)
See my comments on such threads about how NOT huge it is (read - overblown by some)....
or my comments above of how little impact is has right now, when other factors are emphasized.
Basically, i know that tedster, you, and others want to equate every single new algo development into Goog "analytics" testing, but as I said in such threads I have CONCLUSIVE proof that it isn't a factor to the degree that you want it to be.
And certainly, this yo-yo phenomena has been occurring WAAAAY before the analytics theories were even being entertained.
Not many people noticed it before (which i found shocking) but then again, not many people test and keep databases like I do.
Take from it what you will, and as ALWAYS, i encourage every SEO to set up a multi-keyword, cross-niche, statistical rankings database so they can come to more integrated conclusions than just what they are noticing with just their (and a few colleague's) sites.
As I said before, the CAUSES of the yo-yo-ing are way to complicated to discuss with anyone who ISN'T keeping such a database. The solutions are easier.
Add to this yo-yo-ing, the fact that what took Google 3 months to cycle thru in SERPs a year ago, now takes 24-72 hours MAX, and it's easy to see why people are confused as to the "SINGLE thing" that is causing them problems.
[edited by: whitenight at 1:04 pm (utc) on Aug. 12, 2008]
I have a couple of dozen phrases that I manually search for every day or two. Three of them have been at the same #1 or #2 spot for a couple of months. Another phrase just recently made it to the #3 spot, and seems to be holding.
It's the other phrases that are bouncing from #4 or #5 to #7 or #8 or even to #12
The phrase that recently made it to the #3 spot is one for a new page, and has completely new backlinks to it. The other three phrases are for long-established pages and have many, many backlinks of varying quality, some of which are out of my control.
The suggestion that getting into the #1 to #3 spots to avoid the yo-yo was a good one, but most of us can't turn water into wine. ;)
I don't know if this is a yo-yo effect because I'm waiting 22 days now.
sorry for my bad english
Here's webfusion's (note - he was getting "filtered UP" aka bouncing which confused others) - Dec 07
[webmasterworld.com...]
2002: Everflux [webmasterworld.com], when there were still monthly updates, some degree of change still went on.
2003: Rolling updates [webmasterworld.com] observed and discussed.
June, 2003 [webmasterworld.com]
GoogleGuy stated that we should expect at least one more traditional update.
[webmasterworld.com...]
IMHO minor fluctuations aren't worth wasting time on; but there's a difference between minor "flux" (for whatever reason) and what appears to be related to a major ranking change or a penalty for a site, including times when there have been some significant changes made to the site.
Additional thoughts
1. moving sites about in the index means that in order for the said site to maintain constant traffic for that keyword it needs to buy adwords. Its good for googles business.
2. Ive been seeing more and more of this over the last 12 months rolling out from the higher adword search terms to start with to now incorporate a lot more keywords. Hence the "Everflux" comments about the serps as a generalization
3. For a site to maintain a natural high position it needs to a) be "trusted" and b)i think have a low bounce rate.
4. Would agree with all of WhiteKnights observations
5. The sites ive seen that have recovered / had more stability have in my opinion been on the edge of a filter (which G could be continually tweaking for what ever reason) but have possibly improved their trust factor which has helped the problem.
6. I couldnt say that its one factor that causes this issue from what ive personally seen but things to look at in order to seek a cure would imo include:-
a) High keyword density - try lowering it
b) Keyword over used - reduce
c) High bounce rate - ensure content is good for end user to keep them on your site longer before returning back to google
d) Link Text, High % of same anchor words can look spammy - ensure mixed varied links
e) No authority links - try to get some to help increase "trust" factor
f) Time - sometimes its simply a case of waiting it out
One site i worked on that had this issue is stable for the keywords that bounced and it was as a result of keyword reduction and gaining some authority links over time.
Another site still bounces having tried to cure it but i believe thats because recent authority links take time to settle in before they provide any benefit. Time will tell
In all, this kind of issue to deal with (on top of the many other filters/ issues/ penalty / problems to get over in google) just adds to the fun of being a webmaster! - NOT
Good luck all
Rich
Today all our sites lost again 50% from yesterday.
Yesterday was quiet a good google serps result day.
Currently used google IPs are 216.239.59.104 and 72.....
Yesterday google was using 66.249....
How about your sites? Did your sites lost rankings today,too?
Martin, were there any particular ranking changes that were significant concurrent with the drop?
one site has been kicked out completely.
Amazing, if i recall yesterdays google refs. The rankings are mostly the same for 2 other sites. But itīs like poeple using adifferent "search language" to find something or google interprets the querys in a different way.
This happens in a steady way now. After falling down, the sites gain more users daily up to a "threshold" and then immediatly falls down in getting users from google and then climb up to the threshold ....
It seems not to be a mega menue problem. In my niche a sites has about >200 links page and holds #1 for two 200.000 monthly searched keywords. This page has a lot of backlinks ( 45.000 ) but almost from one forum.
