Forum Moderators: martinibuster
It started when I came upon a web site where some kid was blatantly breaking the rules by asking his buddies to click on his Adsense ads.
So I did what a lot of people do... I contacted Google! I figured Google would shut this punk down immediately. Boy was I wrong!
Every time I went back to this kid's web site the message asking his friends to click the ads were still there! This went on for a few weeks and I really started to get ticked off at the lack of response on Google's part.
So I decided to take matters into my own hands. I contacted each sponsor directly and told them there was a chance their ads were being displayed on a cheater's site. I figured if THEY complained to Google, something would happen!
Well I guess I was right! One of the sponsors emailed me back two days later and said:
"I want to thank you for pointing out the kids
clicking on my ads. I turned it over to my Google
rep, and he called today to let me know Google is
disabling their account. Also, he said Google is
crediting me a decent amount for fraudulent clicks
over the last quarter."
It's funny how Google shut this kid down in TWO DAYS because a sponsor contacted them but when I had been trying for weeks, nothing happened. Makes you think...
Telling Google about Adsense cheaters is fruitless... but informing the sponsors, and asking them to contact Google, works immediately!
From our phone conversation you could tell he is really p*ssed at these types of sites. I told him that I agree with him somewhat, but the site owners are simply following optimization tips given by Google Adsense. I then showed him the AdSense optimization page and he basically shot through the roof…hehe
So it seems as if you follow Googles optimization tips at least in some cases they can get you in trouble with the advertisers. I'm sure a big AdWords spender can have a site thrown out AdSense if they threaten to turn off the content network to their reps.
My own thoughts (with no proof whatsoever) is that people being removed from AdSense may have to do more with the AdWords spender than one may think ;)
Google is just as likely to throw you out for talking to advertisers directly. I have thought of doing the same thing (contacting advertisers about bad sites) but was afraid to break the rules.
I have thought of doing the same thing (contacting advertisers about bad sites) but was afraid to break the rules.
Not sure if this was pointed at me or the first post, so I will at least explain my position in my post.
I never contacted them, he contacted me about advertising (which he has been advertising on a site of mine for over 2 years). I guess I shouldn't talk to myself anymore since I am also an AdWords user....hehe
Communications Solely With Google. You agree to direct to Google, and not to any advertiser, any communication regarding any Ad(s) or Link(s) displayed in connection with Your Site(s).
on the other hand, if it was not your site then it's not a problem...
My point in posting this is that despite the post's origin, I think the poster makes a valid point. I have been complaining about one particular site that has no content other than adverts and ad links pretending to be a menu for about 2 months. Google still serve ads, and have made no attempt to make the site comply with the TOS.
The site in question's advert was placed on my site by Googles screwy targetting, and cause me to take a big hit on smartpricing because I didn't block it for a while. I'm considerably wiser now, and would very much like to see Google enforce their own TOS for a change. My guess is that because the site is an adwords advertiser they won't do anything to upset an advertiser - even one that makes a paltry profit. I think it sends out some really worrying messages, and I've emailed Google about this - they simply don't answer the question! neither an admision or denial.
It does p*ss me off that Google ask us to report sites that break the TOS (and this one does - big time), yet don't bother to act on information they get!
Anyway, as I am now an advertiser I wonder if they will now act?
I'm surprised that Google is not more responsive to these matters. It's ridiculous what a Google search for "Click on the ads" will turn up. It would seem to be like a no-brainer.
A few weeks ago, on this very forum, a few here unearthed the process for snuffing out some AdSense click rings through the Yahoo! Groups/Clubs area. This time, it was the Webmaster World mod that sealed off the thread (I can see where it was getting hairy).
I think the initial reaction to anyone when they come across these sites is to shake their head and assume that Google will smoke them out. This is the "Don't Do Evil" company. They will be all over it. But then, time passes, and the urge to be a snitch seems to be the only way to effect change.
It's sad that it's come to that. I don't like the fact that now it seems as if contacting the impacted advertisers seems to be (implied from the first post here) the most efficient way to nip something in the bud when Google has so much to lose in the long-term if it doesn't respond to these tips in haste.
It's funny how Google shut this kid down in TWO DAYS because a sponsor contacted them but when I had been trying for weeks, nothing happened. Makes you think...
I don't think it's funny at all. It just shows that people aren't equally worth on this planet.
It's funny how Google shut this kid down in TWO DAYS because a sponsor contacted them but when I had been trying for weeks, nothing happened. Makes you think...
I don't think it's funny at all. It just shows that people aren't equally worth on this planet.
Not sure about the planet as a whole, but Google's attitude to publishers is very strange. Google NEEDS quality publishers - without quality publishers there will be no quality advertisers. Without quality advertisers Adsense (and possibly Google itself) will shrivel up and cease to exist. Yet Google don't seem remotely interested in our views or feedback on how adsense / adwords can be made better.
However, be a scammer AND an adwords advertiser and you are given carte blance to break all the rules! As far as I can see, Google's actions are positively encouraging scammers and fraudsters. Not a recipie for long term success of the adsense / awords program IMHO.
being contacted by the advertiser is not an excuse...
c'mon, give me a break. Probably 20+ percent of members at WebmasterWorld are Adwords users and they discuss many things with AdSense publishers (with many being both).
The point of this thread is that AdWords users (especially big spenders) can get AdSense publishers knocked out a lot easier than your competitor or an average user can (my belief).
I don't believe they will throw you out if you have a decent site and aren't playing any games. It's the borderline sites that have to worry the most in either case.
People at webmasterworld always say of this type of publisher: there are only a few bad apples in the system. But it's clear that there are many more than a few. MANY publishers see AdSense as a big game, like an on-line game where you accumulate as many points as possible, only one that sends a check every month. It does not occur to them that clicks cost money to small businesses.
I started this thread with a post from another forum to highlight the difficulties publishers have when reporting TOS violations to Google. That has been my experience also. I'm not advocating contacting webmasters direct if Google fail to act. Although, as an advertiser I'd be very pleased if somebody did if my ad was showing on a site that had a "Click on the ads to make me rich" message and Google had failed to remove it.
As an advertiser, if I advertise in content I have no way of knowing if my ads are displayed on a legitimate site that's relevant to me, or a site that simply wants to scam me. I can target specific sites, and I can exclude sites. but knowing what sites to target / exclude is a problem.
I want to advertise generally in content on all sites relevant to my keywords, but why should I with many sites offering me nothing, and just want to deplete my advertising budget for their personal gain? Everybody loses - advertisers, publishers and Google.
Therefore if I see a site saying "Click on the ads" I will report them, and I'm grateful that others do also. I am not being a traitor to the publisher. That publisher should not have been allowed onto the publisher network in the first place, and Google simply is not doing anywhere near enough to remove these sites.
I'm not being a traitor to a site I report for other TOS violations. Most only exist to deplete advertisers budgets and should never have been allowed to participate in adsense in the first place.
To be fair, the problem really is down to Google for creating a system that's so easy to scam, allowing anyone on, and not policing it. OK, they are trying to clean up the serps and adsense, but seemingly only by tinkering with algorythms. IMHO they need to act on information supplied to them, and boot people that violate the TOS out quickly.
I think it's a legitimate complaint to make against Google that as a publisher, when you do report sites they usually do absolutely nothing. Maybe they respond better to advertisers. They certainly shouldn't, but who knows?
Is it better to be a cheater or traitor? Neither. Nor do I think either description applies to me. As an advertiser I want, and expect my advert to be placed on sites relevant to my keywords that are NOT set up simply to scam me and offer me nothing. As a publisher I want to provide advertisers with a worthwhile site to advertise on (and make me money). Quality sites attract quality advertisers.
Anyway, the man just wanted to learn some money. The publishers have enough money and they know what are they going to: there will never be absolute justice in adsense and things like that. They take the risks, however. This means, they have enough money and it's their problems if someone violates.
Next thing, the most I can get for telling Google is a thanks. I don't see more reasons for that. The Google Inc willn't loose that much money so that they could feel it. But the person who has been reported can.
If you report Google, practically, it's because you are jealous. And that's kinda pathetic, imo.
THis is not correct. I know a few clubs that advertize on Google, they have very limited funds and need to promote their events etc.
They certainly don't have that much money, and can ill afford to lose it through click fraud.
The problem is that I wouldn't care about their money. They know what are they going to.
Something similiar people playing in lotteries: they know there is a great chance they'll loose. But they buy the tickets anyway. Should I say them 'the lottery is fooling you, you'll loose' after when they have bought the tickets?
That's life..
The problem is that I wouldn't care about their money.
Of course you don't care because your moral compass has been completely demagnetized.
This isn't anything like the lottery, this is the world of BUSINESS!
These advertisers pay honest money to get customers to buy whatever they're selling and you're sitting here telling everyone they like to be robbed, shoplifting is good, they expect it.
If you run AdSense, I hope you have "CLICK THE ADS" all over your site and tell your family and friends to click too so we can all dance on your "My account was suspended" thread.
I forgot to ask, are you 12?
Trying to protect a system whose long term health is for the benefit of all of us is not being treacherous. It's being smart. This is not the "don't tell teacher" days of the schoolyard.
The "don't tell teacher" (and "its smart to be dumb") lessons of the schoolyard were the first big signs some people's moral compasses never got magnetised in the first place, IMHO...
[webmasterworld.com...]
Rgds
Damon
They have enough money to keep beeing alive, atleast.
The problem is that I wouldn't care about their money. They know what are they going to.
Something similiar people playing in lotteries: they know there is a great chance they'll loose. But they buy the tickets anyway. Should I say them 'the lottery is fooling you, you'll loose' after when they have bought the tickets?
You make some pretty dumb assumptions.
1. Not all advertisers are big corporations with large budgets. The beauty of adsense is that small business, individuals, voluntary organisations and so on can easily reach whoever they are aiming their campaigns at.
2. No advertiser deserves to be scammed - your attitude stinks.
The reason more advertisers are not in content is because of people like you.
As regards reporting violators to Google, why do you think people do it? It's not to get a boiler-plate text thank you from big G, but to protect personal investment. That applies to both publishers and advertisers.
Further more:
The problem is that I wouldn't care about their money.Of course you don't care because your moral compass has been completely demagnetized.
<...> this is the world of BUSINESS!
Laughing out loud. That's the point, it's business. And business is a risk. If you come to business, you know the risks and why should I be sorry if you fail?
If you run AdSense, I hope you have "CLICK THE ADS" all over your site and tell your family and friends to click too so we can all dance on your "My account was suspended" thread.
Eh, do you really hope? Good luck, then.
I forgot to ask, are you 12?
Why should I let a random internet *** know how old I am? ;)
Best regards, vartotojas.
[edited by: eelixduppy at 10:05 pm (utc) on Feb. 18, 2009]
The reason more advertisers are not in content is because of people like you.
As regards reporting violators to Google, why do you think people do it? It's not to get a boiler-plate text thank you from big G, but to protect personal investment. That applies to both publishers and advertisers.[/quote]
By the way:
1. I don't abuse, myself.
2. If you are an advertiser and loose money because of that, I understand why should you report Google. Otherwise, I don't.
3. The 'not that many' advertisers reproach does not (or should not) apply to me (see 1).
4. Google gets 50% of the money the advertisers pay, don't you think it should be a Google's job to check the sites and remove abusers?
Finally, if you advertise your product ex. with a free-poster you give everyone and someone takes your poster but throws it away to a recycle bin, is he the one to blame for your lost money?
You should be ready to take the risks if you get to it.
And since I am not directly affiliated with you, I don't care whether you deserve that or not. Let me repeat again: that's life.
Anyway, the man just wanted to learn some money. The publishers have enough money and they know what are they going to: there will never be absolute justice in adsense and things like that. They take the risks, however. This means, they have enough money and it's their problems if someone violates.
I hope you are not in the adsense program. If you are, I hope you find yourself on the outside looking in, sooner the better. Your attitude is detrimental to the long-term success of Adwords for the content network and all of adsense.
This idea of live and let live is extremely juvenile and ill-founded. By letting this guy make his money he is stealing from a host of other people. Sorry, in grown-up land that is not acceptable and not to be condoned.
If you report Google, practically, it's because you are jealous. And that's kinda pathetic, imo.
How old are you? Again, with your attitude, you are destined to be kicked out of adsense. The odds are way against you.
2. If you are an advertiser and loose money because of that, I understand why should you report Google. Otherwise, I don't.
We all suffer from click fraud - publishers and advertisers alike. If you are not an abuser, then you should understand this. You seem to admit that reporting to Google is legitimate to protect advertiser investment, yet decry it as "pathetic" elsewhere in the thread. Make up your mind. Is it legitimate or pathetic - it can't be both.
4. Google gets 50% of the money the advertisers pay, don't you think it should be a Google's job to check the sites and remove abusers?
Adsense don't say what the percentage is. Some people have posted from Google's annual reports where they mention "Traffic aquisition", and compared to Google's income, what they share with the publisher is apparently more than 50% by some way.
Finally, if you advertise your product ex. with a free-poster you give everyone and someone takes your poster but throws it away to a recycle bin, is he the one to blame for your lost money?
Firstly if he took the trouble to place it in a recycle bin rather than just leaving it in the road I'd be pleased!
Secondly, your analogy is as flawed as the rest of your comments. Handing out leaflets and getting no takers *IS* a risk. Of course the guy you give the leaflet isn't to blame, but all he's doing is not availing himself of whatever you are promoting. He's not trying to hack into your bank account.
Advertising and not getting results becuase you have targetted the wrong people / got your ad wrong are all risks too. Advertising and getting people clicking simply to deplete the budget is the same as the people who you give leaflets to picking your pockets whilst you hand out the leaflets.
It's the reason many good advertisers don't enter the content part of adwords. You seem incapable of understanding this.
You should be ready to take the risks if you get to it. And since I am not directly affiliated with you, I don't care whether you deserve that or not. Let me repeat again: that's life.
You miss the point - advertisers DON'T take the risk of content because of this attitude that it's perfectly alright to fraudulently click their ads.
Definitely a short term take-the-money-and-run mentality.
In each case I received a form letter saying that they would investigate. One site was so blatant that they had a arrow pointing to the ads that says "click here".
Here is the text that is on the page:
"<snip>"
I checked back on this site on Sept. 3 and the ads were still running and the copy and arrow still there. I then clicked the Ads by Google and reported them again identifying myself as an AdWords' content advertiser and AdSense publisher. I received another form letter.
I just checked back again, Sept. 18, and the ads are still there and the page is exactly the same.
I have always had lot of faith in G and I must say that this faith is crumbling. What could possible hold up action being taken against this site? It's embarrassing and discouraging. Why should I spend my time trying to validate the system when they just ignore the the complaints and yahoos like we find posting in this thread seem to be operating in immunity.
ASA this is directed to you.
Can there be a logical reason why this problem has taken so long to address? If you say lack of bodies I'm going to go ballistic. You should be throwing all your resources at this problem and lack of bodies is NOT a valid excuse. If you asked for volunteers from the long term members here I'm sure many of us would be happy to donate an hour per week to find offending sites. Just ask although it's not as though you can't afford to hire the staff to police the system.
I am not one who thinks that this is a deliberate corporate policy rather I think it's inertia in management. It's vital that Google addresses this problem with all the power at it's disposal. Every crook out there who gets away with this crap is encouraging others to join them.
I have been wanting to post this for the last week and half however this new thread has given me the opportunity to unload this off my chest. Sorry for ranting.
[edited by: Jenstar at 1:52 am (utc) on Sep. 30, 2005]
[edit reason] No quotes from website please [/edit]
However, once I got a direct account rep I sent it to them and it was dealt with same day.
Amazing how things change when you know who to ask.
Yet taking the lottery analogy one step further, cheating AdSense is the equivalent of producing counterfeit lottery tickets. That further reduces the actual payout -- and will, in time, lead to less people buying the lottery tickets because of the diminished returns.
I have never reported a site to Google but I can see why folks do. It's in everyone's best interest to keep the system honest. An advertiser who will bid $0.05 on AdSense for Content figuring that half of the clicks are bogus would be inclined to bid $0.10 per click if he knew the clicks are legit. So, it's not being a traitor. It's a case of advertisers AND publishers (and Google) all coming up short at the end of the day, under the delusion that they can make it up in volume.
