Forum Moderators: martinibuster
Gustavo
[edited by: Jenstar at 3:57 pm (utc) on Dec. 23, 2004]
But then we will be faced with the inevitable "Adsense kicked me out but I'm still in MSN" threads.
simple the site breaks the TOS in some way
Or one website matters so little and trying to work out potential problems with each site that might have invalid clicks is so much work that it's easiest and most profitable to just nix the account. That's probably what I'd do if I were Google, too.
Competition would let google revise their terms and responsiveness to publishers, as there is no sense for adsense without publishers.
I don't complain about google's policies or way of doing business. But transparency and better attitude may be good outcomes from a more than welcome competition.
Gustavo
It seems that you don't share this definition... So, when you read "publishers" in my last post, read "who publishes content, and put the google adsense ads in their website".
Regards, Gustavo
This is exactly why I said what I did earlier. The fraudulent clicks are EASILY tracked AND stopped. However, that's not the issue.
The issue is the publisher's site. Once Google starts snooping around your account due to stopped clicks or whatever, if they don't like what they see (namely sites built strictly for AS) then you are booted under "fraudulent clicks." Almost every reason to get booted would probably fall under fraudulent clicks regardless if clicks were the main reason or not.
Their job is not to protect your account from false clicks even though they can and do. Their job is to protect their advertisers and give them a good ROI.
finally a brilliant idea. Sue them for not wanting to do business with you. Teach them a lesson.
;)
If a site is deemed "built for Adsense" then ALL clicks, regardless of their ligitimacy, are technically fraudulent.
Great point. Also, Google often uses the term "invalid clicks" rather than "fraudulent clicks"--and a click doesn't have to be fraudulent to be invalid.
The points of questions are:
1. for what ever the reason, you can be kicked out
2. you do not get any explanation for it
3. everybody to whom that happened is surprised (at least)
4. why Google kick people out instead of solving a problem
Don't tell me, by explaining their findings they would give the hints how to cheat next time better. That is the least acceptable reason!
As a normal business man you would try to keep your customers, even he is an idiot! Simple because you make money with him. So why Google does not follow such simple business rule?
Why these threads of Adsense are getting now more and more emotional?
Because people try to earn money with it. They contribute their space to Google and that is taken away.
I agree, that if somebody goes to court, I am quite sure he will get paid to the last minute he offered the space to Google - Regardless what their TOS says, since he did offer the space, which has a price!
There is no difference with any employee. If you fire him, you have to pay till the last minute he was there. You cannot hold back anything.
One day this week, my account received a CTR of 5x higher than my avergage CTR. There was no increase in page impressions and my CPM for the day was down by 2/3. I run adsense on few sites and I am not talking about a handful of clicks or impressions.
I reported this to Google explaining to them my concern for the high CTR and asked if there was a reporting error. Of course, I was hoping it was not some sort of invalid clicks. In my email to Google, I also assured them that I had never clicked on any ads, never asked anyone to do so nor had I used any automated systems to do so.
Google's response can be noted as follows:
1) They thanked me for letting them know
2) They can't discuss proprietary technology
3) Google will continue to monitor the situation
More importantly, I was allowed to stay in the AdSense program.
As I said, I run AdSense on a few different sites and use Channels for monitoring. I did my own investigation when the Channel data for that day became available. The investigation was quick and the result was clear: one of my sites had an astronomically high CTR and the clicks were obviously invalid.
I immediately removed AdSense from the site. I also wrote Google back letting them know that while they are not saying anything about invalid clicks, I did my own investigation, and the clicks were invalid for sure. I will be analyzing my logs to see if I can determine what exactly caused the invalid clicks.
By the way, Google's process was also aware of the invalid clicks. While the CTR for these Channels was very high, Google's system was smart enough to make these earnings virtually zero and I am thankful for that. Advertisers should take comfort in knowing that as well.
So why did jonnyQ get booted and why was I allowed to stay in?
I don't know jonnyQ but I suspect he is just as honest as I am and he has never clicked on an ad. So why did I get a pass and why did he get booted?
I think that contacting Google right away really helped. I know jonnyQ that you now wish you had - I too wish you could take that back.
But I don't think that is the whole picutre.
Some may say I run cleaner sites, have a longer history or am generally a more valuable publisher. I don't think it is any of these. Ultimately, I think there is a certain degree of luck involved.
I feel very lucky and grateful that Google believed the true story I was telling them. Or perhaps it was not even that and I just happened to score a little better on their automated fraud detection system.
There are some posters here that think if you never click on your ads and run good clean sites, you can't get booted from Adsense. I really wish I could believe that.
There are many automated processes out there that can wreak havoc on a site. We are all small when compared to Google and they won't shed any tears in cutting us loose.
Once again, I am grateful that it turned out for me and realize I just might have easily been booted out like jonnyQ. One thing I am convinced of: if you suspect suspicious activity in your account, report it right away. In my opinion, it can't hurt if you are truly honest. Oh yeah, and keep an eye on your stats.
By the way, when this happened to me this week, I posted here at WW:
[webmasterworld.com...]
(When I first reported this to Google, my CTR was 7x normal, later in the day, it came down to about 5x.)
I think it's also clear that some people get booted innocently. Although the senior people here assure us that it can't happen, in some cases you get the feeling that innocent publishers get booted without human intervention by some bot at googleplex.
I have emailed AS with queries a couple of times, and always get a canned response that often has little to do with the question asked. Strikes me anyone trying to report a problem would meet with the same canned responses, and no human intervention.
Clearly the bot's they use do the job intended in protecting the advertisers, but it's also clear that there are sufficient innocent publishers being caught out for them to review how they deal with the issue. Obviously Google need to protect advertisers, and it's equally obvious that Google need to protect publishers, and many of us here feel they don't. Hence the paranoia about being booted.
As far as I can see, my site would easily pass the "Sniff test", but if some problem occured I get the feeling that trying to get somebody at G to discuss the problem with me just wouldn't happen.
I know that G don't want to discuss policies, or proprietary technology etc. But there is a solution that would stop all of us being so paranoid and would protect advertisers without having to do any of that.
Namely have a stated policy whereby if they detect a possible fraud, they stop serving ads immediately, suspend the account and allow an appeal before booting people. We'd all feel better if we felt there was at least the chance to appeal formally before being booted, rather than depend on luck as to if a publisher stays or goes as currently seems the case. Not all of us check our logs or stats all the time. Some of us look at these once a week. It could be possible that an account has been closed nearly a week before the publisher was even aware there was a problem!
Having a formal appeal policy would not damage relations between G and advertisers. In fact, having a clear policy would both assure advertisers that their investment is being protected against fraud, and publishers that they matter too. It would not mean G had to disclose anything G didn't want to. It would still enable G to boot people off for fraud. I think many of us feel that although G need quality publishers, G 's attitude to us sometimes makes us feel like scum.
[edited by: david_uk at 7:53 am (utc) on Dec. 18, 2004]
There are some posters here that think if you never click on your ads and run good clean sites, you can't get booted from Adsense. I really wish I could believe that.
I don't think anyone has suggested that. But if you never click on your ads and run good clean sites, it's less likely that you'll be booted by AdSense. Of course, other factors could come into play, too, such as your account history, how much revenue you're earning for AdSense, and whether your category or type of content has a greater statistical likelihood of generating invalid--and not necessarily fraudulent--clicks. (Note that I said "could": we don't know for sure, because Google isn't telling.)
Also, as I believe Macro pointed out, Google has the right to terminate the agreement at any time, for any reason--just as the publisher does. That's something publishers should keep in mind when relying on AdSense for their monthly income or even their pocket money.
I asked Google about that and got the answer, you are kicked out!
So, what can I think about Google now?
Asking why I am kicked out, ... no useful answer.
I am looking for an alternative ads for my sites. However, ALL links from this site to such questions are "not found" pages. I wonder if I am on a Google home page, than I would understand many of the answers I found here. At least a whois gave me that impression too.
Of course, other factors could come into play, too, such as your account history, how much revenue you're earning for AdSense, and whether your category or type of content has a greater statistical likelihood of generating invalid--and not necessarily fraudulent--clicks. (Note that I said "could": we don't know for sure, because Google isn't telling.)
And people wonder why there is paranoia here! I think the root of the problem is that people feel they can be booted by a bot with no appeal. If it's true or not nobody knows. Nobody is asking for G to come up with information - just have a clear policy that allowed publishers an appeal against a decision that may have been taken by a bot between the account being suspended and terminated.
Also, as I believe Macro pointed out, Google has the right to terminate the agreement at any time, for any reason--just as the publisher does. That's something publishers should keep in mind when relying on AdSense for their monthly income or even their pocket money.
That's a fair enough point. But I don't think it does Adsense any favours to have jittery, paranoid publishers. We simply need to know that if we are the innocent victim of some fraud, they would allow us the chance to appeal. If G made this clear, then all these threads would dissapear.
Not only are we afraid of invalid clicks happening, we also fear clicking on our own sites by mistake.
I have stopped my family members from using the PC :(
I am hopeful and sure adsense will soon find a way to help protect innocent & small publishers from invalid clicks. I request someone from adsense to heed our requests & post through these forums.
thnks,
eddy
We simply need to know that if we are the innocent victim of some fraud, they would allow us the chance to appeal. If G made this clear, then all these threads would dissapear.
Google isn't a court of law, and guilt or innocence may not matter if there are good business reasons for ending the relationship with a publisher. For example, in some cases a publisher may not be generating enough revenue to justify Google's expense in investigating questionable clicks or monitoring a site that has violated the TOS in some other way. As for appealing Google's decision to disable an account, that's easy enough: just e-mail AdSense Support. We've seen several reports here of publishers being reinstated after convincing the AdSense team that they and their sites were legit.
But jealous maniacs who click on adsense to boot out sites are not just attacking the publisher. They are attacking the advts by google. They are trying to spoil the wonderul adsense program and this should be google's concern.
Once there is a policy of nullyfying such clicks, and letting honest publishers continue, such attacks would stop. Such a 'defence' would be welcome.
We hope it comes soon.
thank u,
eddy
I did run a legitimate business with google. Never clicked on any ads nor told my co-workers, friends about my site just to protect not only myself but also publishers. As one of users here gomer did contact google about a similar problem and google actually thanked him.
Well, I didn't contact google, I just assumed it was a fault on their side, but apprently if I had contacted them I would be ok.
I had google adsense for almost a year and I did comply with evry rule they have. Except there was not a word about how to proceed in a situation of high clicks. Or if you find a suspicious activity in your account, now what. I mean there are people who do not read forums such as these ones here, they just try to do a ligitimate business with google and they might get removed because of a high clicks or something else in their account. I think there should be a detailed disclusure of liabilities which may occur if you use their adsense. There should be a rule which states, you should report any suspicious activity to google at any time. Or othervide your account will be removed. If that existed, no doubt I am sending tons of messages to google about this, not only protecting myself but as well advertisers. But such rule does not exist, and if you are new publisher and have no idea what to do, well I guess you may end up in my place.
As well to RonNa, I think I know a alternative way for you. I contacted this company, but so far no e-mail reposnse, but hopefully I will talk to them soon. Their system runs little bit differently but it is same PPC publisher. I ma not sure if I can post here a url for this, but if I can please let me know and I will do so.
Look at like this: What is business's number one source of loss? Employee theft. Untold bucks are spent on internal security for corporations, protecting the profits from their own people.
It shouldn't be shocking that a corporation with as much money as Google should have an extremely elaborate internal security methodology, to protect their profits from naughty Adsense webmasters who are technically-minded and know a lot of dirty tricks.
I wake up each morning with no doubt in my mind that my Adsense stats will continue on their amazing upwards flow. I am confident of this because I run a clean site, know my ABCs, and pay attention to constructive threads on message boards like these. What is the point of trying to game a system that runs so great?
The answer is: spammers who are not intelligent enough to actually legitimately employ Adsense to their benefit, but come up with ideas like 'hey, maybe I can go to every internet cafe in my city and click my ads', and then come to forums like these to post messages and fish for ideas on the next dumb idea.
If you have been kicked it's because, guess what, it's about 99.5% likely your tricks to fool a mega dollar company have failed.
For the other .5%, I have yet to hear any evidence backing up the claims that it 'wasn't you'.
After so many reading about this subject, my current thoughts are simple and clear:
1. As google, I am trying to run a business;
2. As a business, I need to have clear view of the contracts involved in order to have the most accurate business plan possible;
3. Google doesn't have a clear contract as it neither provide clear definitions of what is considered abusive nor gives you the right to appeal based on evidences;
4. For me, and for now, I am not including adsense in any business plan. I suggest you do the same, look for an alternative.
Regards, Gustavo
THAT is what concerns me. I have never monetised my site.
Suppose I do, and only earn 75 cents a day? Will I be booted out for that?
If so, will it happen sooner rather than later? - Larry
The relationship with Google is one of the most high-handed in the history of business. You get no warning, no explanation, and no final payment regardless of the reason you were booted. Thanks, buddy.
There's no doubt competition would do wonders for this situation.
Lets try something others than Adsense.
All the discussion showed only that Adsense isn't the yellow of the egg.
I try to find something similar, but haven't found it.
If somebody know something, I love to replace it.
Please send me off the board a message about a replacement. Any links here will be destroyed by the moderator, ...
How to find me? Try Google my name: "Ronald Wiplinger"!
(As search engine they are still good, ............ )
2. As a business, I need to have clear view of the contracts involved in order to have the most accurate business plan possible
The contract is pretty clear, IMHO: You can quit at any time for any reason, and so can they.
Some of us like the fact that Google doesn't lock us in a long-term or, worse yet, a long-term exclusive contract. Others prefer long-term commitments. To each his own.
