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Google Adwords is so complicated

but I know why

         

Clark

4:33 pm on Sep 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Since Google had such a problem with SEOs double guessing their algos in the G search, G made the algos very very hard to guess by changing them per datacenter and then randomly modifying it a bit on a cron. But actually it's a 2-pronged attack. They also decided to occupy the time of the SEO/SEM by adding a very complicated adwords system. The new changes are even more time consuming. You compile a huge list of keywords and have to keep clicking to edit the minimum bid. Very clever.

;)

mlalex

5:53 pm on Sep 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



I like the present system.

It is good.

Do or Die!

It looks like I am doing now!

webaddict

6:29 pm on Sep 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Yeah, you're right, I love the new system too. Instead of living my life, eating lunch or even dealing with product fulfillment, I enjoy long walks thinking about Adwords, all hours of the day editing bids and changing ads which really has a minor effect.

In light of everything, I really do love the new system. Thank goodness I get to spend more time with Google now. Stoplights, bathroom breaks and sleeping used to take up the average Joe's time in his lifetime: you can add AdWords management to that peculiar list now.

Geesh, do people really have that much time on their hands? If you were selling one product and only had 200 keywords to deal with, of course, no biggie, you get ripped off slightly and you don't even have to spend hours and hours working with it. GRRR.

DamonHD

7:36 pm on Sep 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Hi,

For me the new system, with the Budget Optimizer on, is no more trouble and about half the CPC of before. I do not have to spend lots of time monitoring.

Rgds

Damon

Victor022

8:10 pm on Sep 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Tried out the budget optimizer for a while with the new system.. very poor results. So I am managing things manually. With the new system CPC is a little more, and overall income is down about 75%. I tried optimizing it in every angle I could think of for a while but have just given up. I don't think optimizing keywords will do it. Is it just the little guy that is losing out due to this change? What is the main difference between those that aren't affected much and those that are?

Clark

12:52 am on Sep 17, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Didn't even notice a budget optimizer. But it sounds like something I wouldn't tend to trust them (or anyone) to do for me.

DamonHD

2:07 pm on Sep 17, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Hi,

My view about BO(!) is that it can adjust to variables you don't even know about, and at times when you cannot be online.

I'm not saying that it (yet) does these things, but for my simple and small campaigns it does a better job than I could, IMHO.

Of course, if you are (feeling) paranoid, it's not for you, but if G was caught deliberately screwing its customers this way it would be such bad faith that politicos all over the world would be leaping on the G-is-evil bandwagon so quick it would not even make it to a petrol station before the oil runs out...

Rgds

Damon

webaddict

3:52 pm on Sep 17, 2005 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Damon it seems you answered why the change is so easy for you already. It doesn't have to do with the budget optimizer you have simple and small campaigns. I deal with over 100 campaigns and over 120,000 keywords.

My CPC hasn't actually gone down except for certain keywords. The generally useful keywords, you know... the ones that actually create traffic are more often than not higher in CPC.

I can also attest that in ratio to amount spent I am not making the same amount of profit. I don't need a budget optimizer I need my *@#$*&@ keywords activated without a $1 - $30 per click.

ember

12:19 am on Sep 18, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Never, never let anyone else manage your budget. That's like letting the person who cuts checks for your company also be the one who signs them. Never relenquish control of the money or it will be gone.

DamonHD

11:07 am on Sep 18, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Hi,

Well, in the UK, the company boss is not allowed to manage their own petty cash for very good reasons.

For my "petty cash" AW budget (well, with some expensive lumps in when I'm experimenting!) I *know* that half will be wasted, and I'm as happy to let BO waste it as me...

Which is NOT the same as taking your eye off the ball and letting it go wild, I agree. I'm finding the CPM campaign I'm trying very inefficient, at least without proper stats to show me otherwise.

Rgds

Damon

shorebreak

3:58 pm on Sep 18, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



[Disclosure - I work for an SEM firm so my views may be biased.]

Ember, you couldn't be more mistaken IMO. The advertisers who are generally having the most success with AdWords are the ones who've found good SEM firms to manage it for them. When I talk to advertisers who've been managing their AdWords campaigns inhouse, what I typically hear is "We're managing it by hand." That's the surest way to fail, resulting in either lack of responsiveness to changing market dynamics, or missing out on maximum volume of revenues. Someone who tries to manage bids manually either gets nothing else done or manages infrequently at best.

There are reasons investment professionals exist - the majority of us achieve higher returns having someone else manage our money. The same thing is true for AdWords only more so. Talk about a market where guidance is needed!

-Google's Traffic Estimator is broken,
-brand advertisers are trying to push 3-5X more offline ad $$ into search than can be done efficiently,
-industry average CTR's and CR's are woefully inadequate
-keyword lists running into thousands or hundreds of thousands, yet no historical S&P-type data exists to evaluate them
-internal employees who *do* know AdWords are in short supply and jumping ship for 40-80% pay raises
-ROI tracking is messed up far more often than it's done right

There's a reason the majority of top 5000 ppc advertisers use an outside firm to manage AdWords for them - better, more consistent returns. Which is not to say your own case may not be different (if you're on WebmasterWorld already that makes u a relative ppc expert), but IMO you couldn't be more off the mark.

-Shorebreak

ember

9:26 pm on Sep 18, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



My experience is to never outsource the money. Or, at the very least if you do, to keep a very, very close eye on it. I am sure your company is honest and ethical, but I have seen too many instances where giving up the purse strings causes trouble. I've seen bookkeepers cook the books to embezzle. I've seen managers run scams to steal to cover gambling habits. The web is a different animal, true, but where your money is concerned, I have learned to never contract it out.

webaddict

9:27 pm on Sep 18, 2005 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



As a quick note I do think that Ember was referring to Google's Budget Optimizer. It would be silly to argue that you should rely on inhouse AdWords work unless the individual or team are professionals. Hiring an SEM company is a no-brainer but for the typical mom and pop shop it isn't exactly feasable. Now for the big guys, the usually hire SEM companies not just for the experience and hands off approach but just because they have money to throw around.

Good point though! ;)

ember

10:27 pm on Sep 18, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Web, yes, I was referring to the Budget Optimizer and apologize if that wasn't clear. I would argue, though, that any company that outsources just because they have money to "throw around" won't be around for long. A big key to successful management of any business is to keep it lean and mean. Well-managed expenses contribute to higher profit margins. In other words, the only reason to spend money is to make money.

mark1111

9:25 pm on Sep 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



if G was caught deliberately screwing its customers this way

"if"?

DamonHD

10:03 pm on Sep 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Hi,

Indeed, "if".

My tin-foil hat is put away in a drawer, honest.

Rgds

Damon

Clark

10:08 pm on Sep 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



That "if" point is very strong. How can you pin someone down when you sign a deal with where you have no knowledge of algos and they know everything? Yet ANOTHER reason not to let someone manage your money.

thebigsteveman

12:52 am on Sep 23, 2005 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



The problem with the budget optimizer is that it has the wrong goal.

The goal is to spend your budget.

But, the way you win this game is to maximize your rate of return, part of which involves split testing ads to get the best CTR, so you can then lower your cost per click with the same position, at less cost.

After that point you can then either find the "sweet spot" for that keyword in terms of ROI, or you can move up, increase your budget and be in the top 3 spots 100% of the time, 24/7, and dominate that keyword/category.

But the way the budget optimizer works actually defeats your long term purpose in PPC

DamonHD

10:34 am on Sep 24, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Hi,

BO tries to spend your budget efficiently.

I really use my AW campaigns for exposure rather than sales, and it does well for me, lowering my CPC by a factor of 2 and keeping my cost-per-conversion ("conversion" being evidence of stickyness rather than a sale) really low.

But BO clearly cannot do that job for all goals, agreed.

Then you would need to use something like the API and a goal-seeking algorithm (heck, even the one in Excel might do the trick) that optimises the right quantity for you.

The point is, with huge numbers of chaotic (or noisy, low-information) variables, humans are demonstrably much worse than machines, and so manually optimising your campaigns, except in very limited areas, is likely to be a waste of time.

That's not G's fault, that's the nature of data-rich, feature-poor, dynamic systems and the human brain.

Rgds

Damon