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# The biggest misconception in AdWords "1 penny over"

## to take over the top position. A reminder for new users

#### FromRocky

7:47 pm on Aug 17, 2004 (gmt 0)

#### Senior Member

joined:Dec 31, 2003
posts:1091

Most users always think that he/she can move up a position with a bid of \$0.01 higher the next bid. This is a misconception. It applies to other PPC engines but not AdWords. For AdWords, you need to get a higher ad-position number. The minimum addition is 0.01 if there is a two-digit round off. For example, the next position has an ad-position of 10.00. Your ad should be at least 10.00 +0.01=10.01 to take over the position. This 0.01 is not a penny but non-currency factor, needed to be higher. It may be equivalent to \$0.01 and up to \$50.00 or higher depending on your niche, ad-position, CTR and your competitor's Max. CPC and CTR.

Illustrations:
From a couple of pennies
Example 1. Yours Max. CPC = \$0.10, CTR=1% position = 2
Your competitor Max. CPC= \$0.10 CTR =1.1% position =1
Calculation:
You should raise your ad position to 0.11+0.01=0.12 and this costs you only 0.12/1=\$0.12/click or 2 cents more to take over the top position.

To over \$100
The same example above but your competitor sets Max. CPC=\$25.0 and CTR=3% (Note that his Max. CPC and CTR are unknowns to everyone except Google.)

and you have to pay 75.01/1=\$75.01 to move to #1.
If you keep the same Max. CPC of \$0.1, a ten cent is the only thing he need to be #1.

He uses Max. CPC of \$25 to keep the number 1 position for himself. However, he can pay dearly for this practic. For example, you work on your ads and your CTR increases to 3% and the same time you increase your Max. CPR to \$20. Now your ad-position is 20*3=60. Your competitor is still at #1 but he has to pay 60.01/4=\$15.01 and you pay only 10 cents for second position.

Example 2. Yours Max. CPC = \$10, CTR=1% position = 2
Your competitor Max. CPC= \$50 CTR =4% position =1
Calculation:

To move to position #1, your ad position must be at least 200+0.01=200.01 and this costs you 200.01/1=\$200.01/click or \$190.01 more per click. \$200.01/click is over limit of (\$100?) and it prevents you to move to the top position even you have that kind of money to spend. The only way to move up is to improve ads to raise your CTR. In this example, although your competitor has a Max. CPC of \$50 but he pays only 10.01/4=\$2.51 (not \$50).

These examples are to illustrate the complication of ad-position in Adwords. If you do not understand how it works and play the bidding war game, it may cost you more than you expected and get nothing in return.

#### eWhisper

8:49 pm on Aug 17, 2004 (gmt 0)

#### Moderator This Forum

joined:Feb 13, 2003
posts:4741

The math looks good FromRocky, it's nice to see someone working out and double checking all their equations before posting them.

#### FromRocky

9:09 pm on Aug 17, 2004 (gmt 0)

#### Senior Member

joined:Dec 31, 2003
posts:1091

#### geebee2

7:30 am on Aug 18, 2004 (gmt 0)

#### Junior Member

joined:Nov 28, 2003
posts:61

Does anyone know precisely how CTR used in the ad-position calculation is determined?

Particularly for a new keyword where there are very few impressions or clicks. Initially CTR is clearly undefined ( 0 divided by 0 ). Also, it must be given some kind of boost until a decent number of impressions have occurred.

Google must have some kind of heuristic for this, I'd guess something like assuming an initial history of (say) 500 impressions with 5 clicks ( 1% CTR ), and then update from there.

They might also take into account the average CTR from the account / campaign / group, and info about the keyword.

#### eWhisper

12:14 pm on Aug 18, 2004 (gmt 0)

#### Moderator This Forum

joined:Feb 13, 2003
posts:4741

Does anyone know precisely how CTR used in the ad-position calculation is determined?

It is the average of ctr of all the advertisers for that particular keyword, at the time you enter the keyword.

From: [webmasterworld.com...]

In terms of positioning, it is the CTR of the keyword in the moment it is searched on that matters - but this is a reflection of its entire history.

The most recent 1000 impressions are weighted (slightly) more heavily, though the entire past history is considered as well. Part of the reason for considering the entire past history it to protect a keyword that has worked well for a long time from being disabled if it has a truly miserable 'most recent' 1000 impressions.

From: [webmasterworld.com...]