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How do I find the best keyword phrase?

Do you put apostrophes in them?

     
10:55 pm on Jun 15, 2004 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



I wondering how I find the most targeted keyword phrase for the product I want to market. For example, if I was trying to market widgets to women, how do I find which search term is best?

1) women's widgets
2) womens widgets
3) women widgets

I understand this is a pretty novice question, but with a limited starting budget, I want to avoid as many stupid mistakes as I can.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Cade

9:38 am on Jun 16, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Use all the three variants.
11:43 am on Jun 16, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



>>Use all the three variants<<
... and also include your phrase in [ ] brackets to make it exact match or put the phrase in " " to get a phrase match.
Otherwise your ad would also be shown for the words womens or widgets
1:20 pm on Jun 16, 2004 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



and
womens' widgets
woman widgets
widgets for women
widgets for woman
buying women's widgets
womanly widgets
ladies widgets

etc.etc.etc.

1:28 pm on Jun 16, 2004 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Thank you, guys. This is great information. Exactly what I needed to hear.

Best wishes for your campaigns,
Cade

6:44 am on Jun 17, 2004 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Onlineleben,
Wow -- I'm a relative newbie here but is that effectively how broad works? I thought both keywords needed to be present but that they could be in any order and spread throughout the keyword phrase, like:

widgets are loved by all womens

>>Otherwise your ad would also be shown for the words womens or widgets

If you're right I have a lot of adjusting to do :-)

11:56 am on Jun 17, 2004 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



mblair is correct -- Onlineleben is incorrect.

broadmatching 'women's widgets' means BOTH words must be present *someplace* in the search string.

12:59 pm on Jun 17, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Sorry, still learning and not much experience with two word phrases in broad match. But with this new knowledge I can test some new ideas.
2:29 pm on Jun 17, 2004 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Why use all 3 variants?

1.[women widgets] shows up in search - women widgets - only and exactly.

2."women widgets" shows up in search - purple women widgets sale - and any other phrase that has it in that exact order.

3.women widgets shows up in search - purple women who need widgets - and any broad type phrase that has the word women first and widgets second.

In my opinion using brackets is the lowest cost method of the 3, if you are looking to control your budget.

CJ

2:47 pm on Jun 17, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator ewhisper is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



and any broad type phrase that has the word women first and widgets second.

In broad matching, the order doesn't matter, just that both words are present in the search string. The words are usually adjusted to show for for both plural and sometimes some stemmikng options.

There are some examples of broad matching where one of the words might not appear. These seem to have been tamed back a bit recently as how some words are broadmatched (has anyone else noticed this?)

Goto: [adwords.google.com...]
pick your favorite broad keywords, and take a look at what they're being shown for.

3:17 pm on Jun 17, 2004 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



There are some examples of broad matching where one of the words might not appear.

To my knowledge this is not true. BOTH words must be present. Expanded BM *may* (I'm not 100% on this) replace additional words but AFAIK only synonyms.

So 'Airplane Reservation' *might* be 'Expanded' to 'Airline Reservation' but NOT just 'Airline' or 'Reservation'.

[edited by: nyet at 3:24 pm (utc) on June 17, 2004]

3:24 pm on Jun 17, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator ewhisper is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



The keyword 'dental surgery' is expanded broadmatched to:

dental implant
implant dentistry
dentist implant
teeth implant
denture implants

Dental being matched to dentistry seems quite logical.
'teeth implant' & 'denture implant' have neither of the origional words listed in the words you'll appear for.

Generally, one of the words is listed, this is a more extreme case, but does show the point (and makes me wrong about 1 of the words having to appear, hadn't seen a match like this for a while until this morning).

3:28 pm on Jun 17, 2004 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Those look like good matches to me, you could also negate one if it isn't.

I am sure some of the algo goes something like 80% of searchers looking for 'Dental Surgery" will click on ads triggered by 'Dental Implants', therefore they are 'synonmyous' (sp?)

I am NOT a fan of "Expanded" Broadmatching, I prefer the old logic.

I wish one could opt for either Broadmatching OR Expanded Broadmatching. I still get cranky when G switches off BM for a particular term because of some unpublished CTR requirement and they don't tell you about it!!!

3:38 pm on Jun 17, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator ewhisper is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



In this case, the logic used to broadmatch is good.

It's a matter of showing that there are times when expanded broad match will show your query for terms which don't include the origional keywords at all.

I would very much like the ability to use:
(expanded broadmatch) and
broadmatch keywords (and have this the default for people not using formatting)

3:46 pm on Jun 17, 2004 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



The problem that we had with EBM (expanded Broad Match) was (using your example above) that before EBM came along we had numerous 2 and 3 words BM's which worked quite well.

So we had 'Dental Surgery' and 'Dental Implants' and these were BM'ing quite well at 5% CTR (thank you very much).

EBM came along and (I guess) 'Dental Surgery' + aggregate of all EBM terms fell below the secret threshold so BM was switched OFF for that term.

When I asked 'Why not just Switch it off for the particular EBM's not working and leave the rest of the EMB on for that term", they told me it does not work that way.

EMB just evaluates your term +1word, +2words, etc. If ALL those don't meet the secret CTR requirement EBM is secretly turned off for that term.

The problem with this is that it assumes EBM is perfect in its 'additions' to your terms.

Hubris!

They have since 'eased back' (a bit) on the secret threshold but it is still there and still secret

[edited by: nyet at 3:58 pm (utc) on June 17, 2004]

3:51 pm on Jun 17, 2004 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



In broad matching, the order doesn't matter, just that both words are present in the search string. The words are usually adjusted to show for for both plural and sometimes some stemmikng options.

Yes, that is correct. I misspoke. And I forgot about the synonym usage in expanded broadmatching. Thanks.

But I still don't see why you would use all 3 methods at the same time. Brackets [] are the most cost effective.

CJ

3:54 pm on Jun 17, 2004 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Why use all three? Get more traffic! Generally EBM will get you more traffic, Exact will get you the best CTR (and thereby, lowest CPC)

but it all depends...depends..depends..

5:42 am on Jun 18, 2004 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



2 questions:

If expanded broad match is working for you, would adding a phrase match or an exact match dilute your broadmatch CTR and possibley push you under the secret threshold?

Also, how do you enter a negative keyword phrase? -"red widget" or -red widget?

11:55 am on Jun 18, 2004 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



remember the impressions would be assigned to the phrase or exact as well as the clicks. The only time this could be a problem for you is if the then remaining BM term cannot stand on its own, which is possible.

you can only negate one word at a time, they can be applied at the adgroup or campaign level. the format is -word

It would be a great thing if you could negate multiple word phrase matches, exacts or BM's, but currently you cannot.

5:42 pm on Jun 18, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator ewhisper is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



Reasons to use all 3 match types:

1. Historically, exact and phrase have higher CTRs, so by being able to track the impressions of all the above, you know how much each one is gathering. (There are times I run an AdWords group for a month or so just to get the impression numbers for SEO & other purposes - this data is invaluable to go through in your logs).

2. If you have a high broadmatch impressions, then you've forgotten some exact & phrase matches. This is an alert to look at more phrase/exact matches, and negative keywords.

3. There will always be industries where there are 10k keyword combos that are relevant, but searched 1-2 times a month (or sometimes a year), broadmatch lets you catch all those relevant phrases, and build an ad group with high CTR for those phrases without trying to figure them all out, as there will always be some that are missed.

If you enter all those 1-2 searched terms, after a year, you might have 20 impressions, so you won't have any ads with a high enough CTR to lower your CPC. By combining a lot of them under broadmatch, you can make groups with high CTRs, that when those phrases are caught, will give you broadmatched keywords with high CTRs. Just watch the negative keywords/conversions to tweak these types of groups.

There will always be industries where broadmatch doesn't work due to a variety of reasons, however, there are times when it works very well, and I think its often more valuable than people realize.

6:07 pm on Jun 18, 2004 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



I need to correct myself about negative words.

you CAN INDEED have 2-word negative keywords. They function the same way as having a negative phrase match.

So -red shoes

would negate any search with the phrase match: red shoes. (order of words must match)

Non-showing searches:
i want red shoes
i want red and blue shoes

showing searches:
good shoes that are red
i want a red shoe

 

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