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(AOL) Netscape Files Suit Against Microsoft

for promoting Microsoft's IE browser at the expense of Netscape Navigator

         

Hunter

9:14 pm on Jan 22, 2002 (gmt 0)

tedster

7:46 pm on Jan 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



It's seems that every new technology has had some kind of shady dealings in its early years. When there's big money/power at stake, it can bring out the worst. It happened with railroads, steel and as mivox mentioned, oil. Not a pretty picture.

I once read about the telephone's introduction and the struggles with the established telegraph industry. There were even murders around that technology switch!

So this lawsuit is important from a social point of view. Companies should be called on suppressive tactics every time they show up.

Nevertheless, Netscape sure did shoot itself in the foot. Version 4 was one thing, but then after so long a wait to have v.6 be a dog too. If v.6 had been, say, the caliber of Opera, lots of people would have come back to Netscape as the word spread. IE's security problems would have done half of the publicity work for free!

NeoN

7:49 pm on Jan 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Yes, probably Word.
But not because that is how the business works. That is the best text editor for easy use. Not agree???

And I will keep saying - NN is a trash and nothing will help them! Sue or not to sue - the battle was lost some years ago!

AS Bill Gates says, "some people just miss turns on the way"

mivox

8:17 pm on Jan 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

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I quit using Netscape myself. (I'm using my first install of Opera for Mac right now, actually. I like it. I may relegate IE to preview-only status...) But the point isn't about who's software is best. It's about the tactics Microsoft used to gain market share. It was illegal.

Imagine someone is a thief. You could say, "They are a thief, so it is OK for me to break into their house and steal their things." But, if you got caught stealing from them, you would still be arrested and thrown in jail. Just because Netscape put out a bad browser doesn't make it OK for Microsoft to use illegal anti-competitive tactics against them.

What if I created the most incredible word processing program ever... it beat MS Word hands down, was better then Word Perfect ever dreamed of being, stomped all over the word processing features of every "Works" program ever released... And I went to Dell and showed it to them. They agreed it was the best. I said, I'll let you distribute my program on your retail machines for only $10 per copy, if you put the icon on the desktop by default. Then Microsoft told them, "Take that new icon off the desktop, or we'll make you pay full retail price for every copy of Windows you use on your computers."

Do you think Dell would keep my icon on their desktop? No. And that's why what Microsoft did was illegal. It has NOTHING to do with who's software is better. It has to do with Microsoft using their market position to bully other companies, and make it very very difficult, if not impossible, to gain a real foothold in the market place for anyone trying to compete with their products.

But not because that is how the business works.
That is exactly what my boss says. "You HAVE TO use Microsoft for business because EVERYONE ELSE uses Microsoft." He has never once said he thinks Microsoft makes the best products. He doesn't know if they make the best products, because he has never tried any other products, and he admits that. But he doesn't think he has a viable choice in the business world.

That is the best text editor for easy use. Not agree???
I do not agree at all. While MS Word 2001 for Mac is 10X's more stable than Word 98 was, it's still a huge resource hog of a program. I only use it when I'm making up a document for my boss, because he doesn't have the software on his Windows NT box to handle any other type of formatted file.

pat_s

8:34 pm on Jan 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Actually, I use EditPad Lite for simple text editing. I only use Word if I actually need its features and it's true about the business apps. Businesses use them because everyone else uses them. They use Microsoft Exchange and Outlook when it causes them no end of problems, because that's what everyone uses, I guess.

Still, this lawsuit is no doubt going to be the battle of the major league corporate lawyers and I wouldn't attempt to predict where it's going, but in a simpler case, I think it would make a big difference whether the plaintiff could prove harm was done to him by the tactics involved. It's not like criminal law, so laws about breaking and entering and such aren't the best analogy. What some of us are arguing is that Netscape lost their market share without help from Microsoft and would have lost it just based on the relative merits of the browsers as they developed. What the court will say..who knows?

mivox

8:58 pm on Jan 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Not a precise analogy, for sure... but my theoretical example about the world's best word processor is probably pretty accurate, from a competitors point of view.

Outlook
LOL... My boss pays our network support guy to come in and update the NT virus software every time something new crops up... and I tell him every time: Switch email programs, and 99% of this garbage will no longer be a threat. He just smiles. You HAVE to use Microsoft, you see...

pat_s

9:17 pm on Jan 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



I know. It's amazing. I don't know much about e-mail servers but I do know that if they used a Unix server (which we have, in mothballs or something) and gave everyone Eudora or anything other than Outlook we probably wouldn't have e-mail shut down every two weeks. What's more amazing is that there are plenty of people in the IT department who know that, who explained it to them when they went MS, and who could set them up with no problem..but as you say, everyone uses Outlook, therefore everyone has to?

hickoryhead

7:17 pm on Jan 25, 2002 (gmt 0)



>>Actually, I use EditPad Lite for simple text editing. I only use Word if I actually need its feature<<
I guess this is just a "me-too" post, sister Pat, but I gotta chime in because I've seen so many people plug NoteTab which I really hated. I don't warm up quickly to most software, but EditPad Lite won me over fast.
As for Netscape, I used to preview my efforts in it, but BOY do I hate that thing, and I still can't see any reason to use it unless one hates Microsoft that much. Yes, IE was bundled with Windows on my PC, but after trying Opera and Netscape it still works best for me, and I'm not sure whether this lawsuit represents a real clash of the corporate titans or just a high-leverage and high-profile negotiating strategy.

tedster

7:33 pm on Jan 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



It's common in our business for someone to report a problem viewing a page -- and the question we need to ask next is "What's your browser and operating system?"

Anyone who's not using IE almost always knows what their browser is. IE users often don't even know what the WORD "browser" means! That's what Microsoft has achieved. They've eliminated the category "browser" from the average user's mind. They're not being chosen as the Best in Show.

minnapple

5:01 am on Jan 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Returning to this thread, answering a later post.
The majority of the buying public uses IE.
The rest of them using, Netscape, Opera, What-a-mac-jig, I don't care about.
I am a capitalist. :¦ and need to feed the kids.

Hunter

5:13 am on Jan 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



>That's what Microsoft has achieved. They've eliminated the category "browser" from the average user's mind. They're not being chosen as the Best in Show

Interesting how the same could be said for AOL as an ISP.

NeoN

6:23 am on Jan 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Hunter, GREAT IDEA!!!!!!!
AOL is the ISP monopoly ..And what??? They have their brand software .. They limit users ( I often read "For AOL users click here")..
Why then you are only opposite to Microsoft???

As minnapple said, we are all capitalists..

For example, everybody here think Google is the best ( sorry, not everybody, but 80%, I think :)<for Everyman:)> ) Often I hear here "I would like Google to be known and used more often"..
Ok. But what would be when Google will become the BEST and the BEST!?????????????
The same people will claim :"Oh, s###. They are monopoly.."
Yes, Microsoft is not always right! But ok, if they are the business standard, then what should you do??? Should you cry and say "I hate MS"??

And IE is not the case to compare with NS. They are simply better!

Marshall

8:45 am on Jan 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Like it or not, some industry's are better served through a monopoly. Weren't things better before they broke up Ma Bell? How many threads are there complaining about NN: display problems; text fields that are twice as wide as you want; quirks like when using the URI of the DTD it freaks; having to give them your whole life story just to get an update. Sorry folks, that's ridiculous and damn inconvenient to both web masters and users. If you want to push a product, you don't make it difficult for people to use. I never have display probelms in I.E. or Opera and I seldom see a "Best Viewed Using Netscape" line on any site.

And as far as the necessity for AOL to retool to make NN their default browser, oh I shed a tear. If it is THAT important to them, they'd do it. Heaven knows they have the money, time, resources AND, most important, the distribution network; a distribution network MORE effective than M$. Heck, if even they didn't want to invest the time and money, they could put a "Download Netscape Browser FREE" notice or even a disk in all those damn free trial offers for AOL.

Whether or not you like M$ doesn't matter. I said it before and I'll say it again: when things don't go your way, you sue, plain and simple, right or wrong. That's the American way. Head to head with I.E. and Opera, Netscape stinks!

pat_s

12:44 pm on Jan 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



I don't know..not being a lawyer, but it's probably a fairly interesting legal question. If the browsers had always been equal, then Microsoft's monopolistic practices certainly would have acheived what's happened. It's true that a lot of IE users don't know what browser they're using these days and take it for granted that the "blue e" on the desktop=the internet. On the other hand, earlier versions of IE were on the desktop when people downloaded the very superior Netscape right up to the early 4 versions. In those days you saw "Best viewed with Netscape" all the time on sites. I remember getting up at 5 AM to get a download of Netscape because with the modem connections back then, and the fact that one's ISP tended to disconnect you during a long download and the popularity of that particular download that was the only way I could get it done. But Windows did come with a version of IE and Microsoft mail even then. No one that I ever new used them.

It's a weird thing that just as IE got good, Netscape got bad, but that's what happened. So, given that history I think it's a lot more complicated than just about any other the Microsoft vs. everyone else issues.

john316

1:29 pm on Jan 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



AOL/TW really has no options here. When you have a piece of paper upheld by the supreme court that states you were damaged by M$, fiduciary responsibility kicks in. If they were to just file the monopoly findings under the "forgive and forget" directory, shareholder suits would be imminent.

<bringing it home> If you had a court ruling that stated you were damaged by big, greedy, monopoly corporation, would you just sit on it, or would you be in your lawyers office?</bringing it home>

Marshall

3:11 pm on Jan 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

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If Netscape/AOL/TW wants to sue M$, that's fine with me. But don't have the DOJ using tax payer money do it for you. Why should we pay their legal fees when we don't get any financial benefit. Netscape/AOL/TW should be required to prove their case on their own if they want financial compensation. Otherwise, they should split their winnings with everyone who pays taxes. Or have we all forgotten that we paid to have this case prosecuted in the first place.

john316

4:39 pm on Jan 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Marshall

Taxpayer money is not being used by AOL to sue M$.

The government did spend to curb a monopoly that would eventually cost consumers more than any legal fees incurred.

Marshall

7:31 pm on Jan 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



AOL isn't using actual taxpayer to file the suit. However, the evidence on which their complaint is based was gathered and judged using tax payer money. Were they not one of the allegedly grieved parties which started the whole thing. I am saying that they should have to independently obtain the evidence.

And on another note, if they were so severely damaged, why haven't they taken action before. It's one of those things that stinks because the only reason they're doing anything about it now is that they're not holding hands with M$ behind close doors. They want to have their cake and eat it too.

john316

10:21 pm on Jan 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



It's kinda like the OJ thing, you had criminal and civil elements..what you are saying is that the victim should pay for law enforcement.

That is why we have a justice department and not a paid vigilante department.

Marshall

12:50 am on Jan 27, 2002 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



In civil cases, yes the plaintiff should pay.
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