Forum Moderators: not2easy
Then I started thinking about copryright infringement or whether I could get in trouble for doing this. Why are there internet harvesters if this is illegal?
So, is it illegal to do something like this? If yes, then what is legal to do, short of using an application to create my websites or hacking through html code? If no, what all is one allowed to do when doing something like this? All websites these days have copyright text on them. How do you tell which ones are real and which ones are just there because that's the thing to do?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions or ideas. I'll be glad to take criticisms as long as they don't get personal. :-)
Matt
I guess I got frustrated when all I could make was crap from Frontpage and then I found great looking website and I asked the owner how he made the website and he said, "I used Frontpage!" I couldn't believe it. I assumed that Frontpage was crap for making websites. So, I downloaded his site to try and figure out how he did it, deleted all his content and ended up with a bare-bones framework to work with. I haven't started using it yet, I've just been looking at it. After I looked at it for a while, I started asking myself questions about honesty and then I found this place to post.
So, am I morally responsible? I think so. I haven't published a single website that I've copied (I think I've copied two for ideas so far).
Matt
Where the line is drawn is how you use the code. Have I looked at sites that I thought were great? Of course, who hasn't. I always look at code I think is very nice or very stupid.
The line is drawn at improving the code. You can't just take code wholesale, and besides, I have never seen a site where the code could not be improved upon. It's kind of like the game solitaire. The person looking over the shoulder always sees a better way.
If you look at a code and can't think of a way to change and improve it, you have no business using the code in the first place. Ethically, b/c you didn't make it your own. Logically, b/c if something goes wrong, you are screwed.
Yes, you can.
>>Why are there internet harvesters if this is illegal?
For the same reason porn exists on the internet. Someone will always be around willing to use the product. Building a harvester may be perfectly legal, using one may cross the line.
>>So, is it illegal to do something like this? If yes, then what is legal to do, short of using an application to create my websites or hacking through html code?
I got my hands on a lot of others people source code, way back in the beginning. I didn't use their code, I studied the code and cobbled together my own page. I was all I could do at the time, and I for one would not begrudge anyone the opportunity to do the same. But, if I find my page on your site, we're talking about something else.
>> All websites these days have copyright text on them. How do you tell which ones are real and which ones are just there because that's the thing to do?
Any copyright notice is real, and should be considered as such. Copyright does not need to be a formal process, although that process does provide one with additional protections. When I put Copyright 2004 on my page, believe me. I can, and will, prevent abuse of my work.
</soapbox>
Learning to build your site can be a lot of things, from inspiring to aggravating. If you are new, thank your lucky stars that you've found this forum, there's more here than you might imagine. Continuing to ask questions and reading thru the libraries and forum threads will help you develop the skills to build and maintain a first rate site.
Get rid of FrontPage. It blows, you already found that out, and using it any longer won't help. Before long you will probably be adept enough at html to use a plain text editor, I suspect many of us here use one. There are some really fancy html editors too... I tried one and still prefer the text editor.
Look around for a good reference book. I never used one (the one I have is really crappy and not worth opening), instead referring to the W3C site, asking questions here, or looking at other folks solutions.
Best wishes to your future endeavors.
Wholesale copying of code is another matter. For a simple table layout, it might be hard to prove. If you copy a site with complex coding or detailed style sheets, though, you are potentially creating a problem for yourself. The line between using an idea and copying enough code to create a copyright violation may not always be well-defined, but I'd avoid anything that would cause a designer to say, "Hey! That @&^%$# ripped off my site!" :)
Anyway, thanks again for the comments. I'd still love to have more if you feel you'd like to give me more. I'll look around some more as well.
Matt
Why are there internet harvesters if this is illegal?
Because they do not republish the site. Republishing copyrighted information is what *you* would be doing.
As others have said, look at the code and learn from it. You like that cool curved box around the page? Then look at how they do it.
Don't ever copy something that you do not understand what it is doing. And once you understand what it is doing, then you no longer have any reason to "copy" it.
You should also become familiar with many of the free clip-art sites out there. Don't go crazy with them, but use them when you feel the need. You should be able to find plenty of line-art images to make whatever fancy box that you want.
You can also just go ahead and write to the webmaster of a site that you like, and ask for permission to use a specific element, or even use their html code as a template. Most people are not that wound up about their HTML, they care a lot more about their content. But if they say "no", you should respect their decision with no hard feelings.
As for the best WYSIWYG tool on windoze, I would recommend dreamweaver. But you will never get to having an incredible site without learning the HTML, CSS and image editing tools. None of them are all that hard to learn, as long as you are willing to accept that it isn't that hard. If you decide that it is hard, then it will be. Personally, anything beyond a simple page where I am just plugging in a few things, I will use VI and hand-edit the code.
There are also a passle of places that will sell you 1, 2, even 200 different pre-made templates for the sites you want to build. The quality of the templates vary greatly of course, but you'll likely find one you like.
Simplyput, there are many trails open from which you may choose. Some traverse smelly bogs. Others provide many breath taking vistas. Choose wisely, and good luck to you.
I thought that getting better apps would help
When it comes to matters of design and aesthetics, your own know-how matters more than the tools you use. Study other people's code when you come across things you like, but remember that cloning someone else's work (even if you get away with it) won't get you as far in the long run as developing your own style and skills.
Look around this board for some discussions on how well ugly sites can sell.
That's pretty common, probably more common then not. I would definitely not copy a site, but rather gather some ideas from several sites you like and build your own.
On the other hand... you might work smart not harder and hire someone to bring your aspirations to light. Elance is a great place to find REASONABLE designers and they work fast and cheap. You could be surfing your brand new site in a week or two. I couldn’t do without them.
That being said, I don't really know much about the topic other than what I just stated, and am by no means an attorney.
Anything anyone writes, unless stated otherwise, is automatically protected by copyright.
Not quite true. While you are correct that works are now automatically copyrighted, the work actually has to be copyrightable.
And, as HTML would most likely qualify as computer code instead of literature, there are many additional issues such as efficiency to deal with. If there are only a few efficient ways to "do something", especially when given the constraints of the language, then that code snippet is not copyrightable.
In some areas, such as the device driver in the OS that connects an API to hardware, you would probably need almost 100% copying to win an infringement case. In fact, you receive more protection by writing bad code than you would by writing the best possible code.
With HTML and CSS, you probably aren't going to be able to claim any specific code elements as being under copyright. It is the unique way the the whole page is put together where you will receive the most coverage. Try claiming a specific <table> arrangement or CSS definition and you will lose on efficiency.
Now if you have unique class IDs that are descriptive of only your site, it would greatly increase your odds of winning an infringement action.
But like I said before, I suspect that most webmasters could care less if you copy a bit of their HTML, they care about their content.
Sounds like from your description of what you like about the sites you are harvesting is the graphics.
I would recommend Photoshop & Adobe Illustrator. Get yourself a good book about creating web graphics and try some tutorials. Once you understand what is actually happening on those pages, piece by piece, you won't need to steal them.
I started on Frontpage, too, by the way. I was never happier than when I left it behind. I find Macromedia's Dreamweaver much easier to work with and it plays nicely with other programs when you are ready to dig in a little deeper.
Good luck. And some advice: Never ask a group of people who make their bread and butter from a certain skill set if it bothers them when someone steals their hard work.
Whenever I need inspiration, I browse the web and find at least three websites that I like. I then emulate those parts of the websites that I like. Usually, when I put the mixed websites together they don't gel like I want them to, so I make adjustments as needed. In the end I usually end up with a totally unique website without stealing anybody's work. I'm not a designer, but I make decent looking websites. Every once in a while I put together one that looks really good. For me, I find that the more time I put into the design the better it looks (usually). I may be slow, but to get a good design, it usually takes me about 8 - 30 hours depending on mood, inspiration, etc.
One of the basics of a good website is color scheme. I use this tool to get the color scheme www.pixy.cz/apps/barvy/index-en.html (I hope that is ok mods, I found it in another thread on WW).
Scrutinizing others' sites and figuring out why and how they do things is fine—just don't copy the whole thing. In time, your skills will improve and you will be able to make a nice site on your own. :)
Some of the posts on this thread remind me of comments I hear from some new or "wannabe" artists. Some of them want shortcuts. "I'm not that good! It's too hard to be a good artist! So I'll just trace this photo instead of learning how to draw—learning how to draw takes too long and it's too hard for me!" They often make these complaints to people who have learned how to draw, and did so without complaining about how "hard" it was. And so obviously, such complaints don't go over well. Boo hoo hoo. Cry me a river. So it is hard at first. Tell us something we don't know! ;)
And the same thing applies here. Just because it's "hard" for you, it doesn't mean that it's okay to swipe from someone else. (I know that you know that now.) It's always "hard" in the beginning, but it gets easier after you work at it for a little bit.
If something is worth doing, it's worth doing right. And if you want to have a attractive website, you're going to have to put in the effort to learn how to do it yourself, or else pay someone else to do it for you.
Now, I know that you are not saying that you never want to learn how to get better, and I know you are trying to do what is right. I assume that you realize that in order to make something attractive, you will have to put in some personal effort.
Really... this stuff is not that hard. If you really want to build and maintain a web site you need to learn this stuff anyway. So head to your local book store and get something to help you learn the code.
I can understand getting ideas from other sites, but if you can't come up with a site that is unique and that makes you stand out from your competition then you might as well not even bother with the web.
Don't take it personally though, I tought myself and I have helped a few friends get started that I was sure would give up. So I have a hard time believing that you can't learn how to create a site on your own.
So, what is the process that most people go through when designing a website? For example, I've heard of some people putting things together in Print Shop and then cutting it up into pieces (so people likee me can't grab it very well) and turning it into a website. There are others who just start writing html code. I'd love to learn from the best. Sometimes it's hard to know where to start.
If this question belongs in a different forum, let me know and I'll go there.
Matt
You can't just take code wholesale
Got a link to the case law on this?
Sometimes it's hard to know where to start.
The only way to start IS to just start.
Matt
So, is there a place on this site where people share code and review pages and provide feedback? Or is that outside the scope of these forums?
Not on this site, no. There are others but you can't mention them here.
Learning takes work in any field. A bricklayer doesn't carve off a piece of someone else's finished work and try to pass it off as his own. Why would you want to do the equivalent of that online?
Like others have said, there's nothing wrong with looking at wonderful sites and seeing how they pulled it off in their HTML/XHTML markup, their CSS and so forth. Indeed, it's how most of us learned and continue to learn.
There are some good online communities geared towards, at least in part, letting web developers and designers post their work for critique. Here's more than you're probably ready to start following daily:
[google.com...]
From speaking with people at the Library of Congress who are responsible for copyrights, it is my understanding that common code which would fall under the classification as "public domain" like classical recordings do, is not subject to copyright. You could say it is similar to using the same brand of paint another painter uses. The paint isn't copyrighted (except by the manufacturer), but how the paint is used is.
In short, graphics, color, appearance, layout, text, and similar items are protected. The fact you may embed tables or lay them top to bottom, or use CSS, or roll-over effects, or a drop-down menu, is not protected. However, if you have written specific code to make your site functional, that is protected.
As for when is a work copyrighted, it is when it is created, published or not. If the work is already published, the publication date has to be included with the copyright application. Either way, to ensure that you retain all rights, you should file for a copyright. The mere fact a work exists does not guarantee you will be protected in court, should it come to that.
