Forum Moderators: not2easy
The illustrator indicated he wanted to retain copyright ownership of the designs and also wanted 10% of the sale of each item.
I understand there are artists who will not work for hire and want to retain copyright ownership of the work however; I have two questions/concerns
1. I'd have to have an agreement drafted about the scope of his ownership of the illustrations, which after all are my ideas in very specific detail.
2. Is 10% of each sale typical? I guess I could say I'd agree to it for a fixed time frame after which all profits return to me, the other option is of course to find someone to execute my ideas and retain all ownership myself. It’s somewhat more complicated in that I've know and like the person for years however, business is business.
best wag on my part, your artista is banking that you'll place more reliance on the front end of that pair of thoughts and less on the latter end. After all, the artista has known you for a number of years as well.
Personally, I'd tell the artista I'm going to engage someone else for this project. The artista's desired rate for turning your existing idea into camera ready art is, at least in my opinion, quite excessive and I would treat it as an unwarrented business decision.
I find it laughable that he wants to you pay him to make art that he ends up owning that he then licenses back to you for an very high rate.
The problem I have with him owning the copyright is that if the T-shirts start making great money, he can either change the licensing terms (15%? 20%? 50%?) or just find someone else to sell the shirts.
Why pay him to bake the cake and own it too?
Need to think with my biz head and not friendship head.
When an artist becomes relatively well-known and has developed considerable talent and ability, they tend to not want to work for hire, and they also tend to not want to give up their copyright. When they do work for hire (or sell their copyright), they usually tend to charge a WHOLE LOT for it. As is their right.
I'm not suggesting that your artist friend is being reasonable, since I really have no idea what kind of money we're talking here, or what kind of work was supposed to be done. I'm just saying that when you hire someone with the ability to do something (really well), you have to pay them handsomely for it. Either that, or find someone who doesn't do it quite as well, and pay them less. You get what you pay for, in other words.
Another point: why not make some sort of contract that stipulates that the artist will sell you exclusive t-shirt rights for X amount of years, with a fixed percentage--in this case, 10%--of profits going to the artist. If the deal is cemented so the artist cannot later change the terms (i.e. want more of a percentage of profits, sell rights to another t-shirt company), then what is the problem? If this artist is well-known in his or her own right, the fact that *they* created this artwork (their good reputation, in other words), will add value to the end product. This is worth something, and this artist knows it.
As always, see a lawyer to further discuss your options.
Those types of things don't always end bad, but in a high percentage, there ends up being bad feelings.
The only reason I could think of using him is if he is the ONLY person that could accomplish what you want.
Do what is best for youself. I know, sounds kind of selfish, but ultimately you should do what makes you happy.
I understand the creation is in the output of the work however, I was not prepared for all the conditions he set forth.
About your point of paying what it is worth I agree on the other hand I have to see what his quote is going to entail as this is starting as a small operation and the creation fee for the design, the fee for the site creation as well as the 10% and ownership may be too burdensome up front.
While he is well know for illustrations, he is new to this area of t-shirts so it is not like we can advertise that point on the site.
When I see his quote I will be in a better place to judge however, perhaps he will agree to ownership and or the 10% for a fixed period of time or after we hit a certain threshold.
Thanks again.
About your point of paying what it is worth I agree on the other hand I have to see what his quote is going to entail as this is starting as a small operation
It may simply be that your small operation is too small for someone like him.
and the creation fee for the design, the fee for the site creation as well as the 10% and ownership may be too burdensome up front.
Which means you might need to look for a lesser-known (less able, perhaps) artist.
While he is well know for illustrations, he is new to this area of t-shirts so it is not like we can advertise that point on the site.
I don't quite understand why this would be--if he does well in illustration and has made a name for himself, then his good name and reputation will draw customers to buy the t-shirts. Art and illustration fans wear clothes too.
If, however, you do not see how you can promote his skills and good name in the marketing of the t-shirts, then this might be something that is too small for him, or too big for you with what you are willing to pay. On the other hand, if you think his skills are so remarkable and unique that the excellence of the finished illustrations on the t-shirts will enable you to sell plenty of t-shirts, then you ought to be willing to pay for that, even if it's more than you initially would like to. Yeah, I'm going to insert the "you get what you pay for" mantra here again. You can't expect caviar quality on a tuna budget, in other words.
When I see his quote I will be in a better place to judge however, perhaps he will agree to ownership and or the 10% for a fixed period of time or after we hit a certain threshold.
I agree that if he won't consent to some agreement (like you have exclusive t-shirt rights for so many years, the profits should be at a fixed percentage that you both agree to), then you should look elsewhere. You shouldn't have to pay him a fee for the artwork, only to worry that later on he'll allow your competitor to sell t-shirts too (or have him arbitrarily decide he wants a bigger cut of the profits).
However, I don't think he's being out of line by not wanting to work for hire, and not wanting to relinquish his copyright completely. That's not at all unusual.
He's not a small potatoes artist, he knows what his work is worth, and he very likely has other offers that will pay him well (and won't require that he work for hire). That's what happens when someone is really good at what they do and are in demand. The fact that you've got a "small operation" does nothing to change that fact.
Should have been clearer. I do not think he is known by the average customer where he would certainly be known by companies that create products that use his designs.
What I can do of course is use his cv on the site as a possible draw if again the "average" customer cares about that, in the end I think they are going to like the designs I've come up with or not. That said bad execution will yield a poor result and vise versa.
Net, net I need to see what he comes back with and make a call <g>
