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And if there are any other issues that you feel I should be aware of, please...do tell.
Thanks.
's what we're doing right now. Basically - everything is always assumed work-for-rights, meaning I pay you, the company paying me keeps the copyright. I wouldn't consider working with anyone who wouldn't do that. We've always done the same for our clients. I figure if you're not willing to give away the "rights" then you're definitely not charging enough money.
What I do about item # 2 is literally brag about how great they are to the clients face to face, usually later in the sales process. I talk about their experience, the companies they've worked for. Generally speaking, the contractors I use don't really cross lines with me directly - or they aren't local, but we're targetting businesses who really want/need to have someone local on site. I quite proudly associate ourselves with our contractors when I'm with our clients. I haven't yet added their work to our site - I think that's asking too much of them, they aren't employees. I expect we'll have enough collaborative work to show soon enough... and on top of that, the clients we find don't care so much, our "gig" is being in the right place at the right time with the right amount of help. I don't see our clientele choosing from X number of businesses and deciding to use us from our portfolio... and finally, I think all of our contractors are just happy to have someone else doing all the slugging/managing/sales work, and bringing them the few straight-forward bits they can do so well...
Third item - pay fast and furiously (not always possible if the client hasn't paid you - but I know I've floated things on my credit card to pay our people first, despite that) Treat them like you would a client. Ask THEM for feedback like you would ask a client, to make sure things are going well. Lean back, and let them do what they're great at while you find more sales - that's the joy of having them.
Big one - Handle criticism in a positive manner - and honestly remember this - if THEY make a big mistake in doing something or implimenting something, its YOUR FAULT as the manager. YOU didn't make things clear enough. When you're paying for something its tempting to complain like you were returning a bad pair of pants to Wal-Mart... that's completely the wrong tack to take. Be responsible, be supportive.
Always damn well hire someone BETTER than you! You'd think that's a given, but there's a misleading style of management that says that "you must be able to do everyone's job". If you do, you're missing out on some major synergy when you do that. And you'll be dissappointed with their work compared to yours, instead of constantly impressed, and wondering why you did things yourself for so long!
Whew. A whole lot of unedited thoughts here. Hope its helpful.
Basically - everything is always assumed work-for-rights, meaning I pay you, the company paying me keeps the copyright. I wouldn't consider working with anyone who wouldn't do that. We've always done the same for our clients. I figure if you're not willing to give away the "rights" then you're definitely not charging enough money.
Cool. That's what I thought. However, I usually put "Created by MyCompany.com" at the bottom of the homepage of all of the sites that I create. My clients don't have issues with it, as my site actually promotes their site. So, they are happy to be associated with my company. Since the contractors will be giving away the rights to their work, there shouldn't be an issue with this since my clients actually want my link there, correct?
What I do about item # 2 is literally brag about how great they are to the clients face to face, usually later in the sales process. I talk about their experience, the companies they've worked for. Generally speaking, the contractors I use don't really cross lines with me directly - or they aren't local, but we're targetting businesses who really want/need to have someone local on site. I quite proudly associate ourselves with our contractors when I'm with our clients. I haven't yet added their work to our site - I think that's asking too much of them, they aren't employees. I expect we'll have enough collaborative work to show soon enough... and on top of that, the clients we find don't care so much, our "gig" is being in the right place at the right time with the right amount of help. I don't see our clientele choosing from X number of businesses and deciding to use us from our portfolio...
I guess your clients are different than mine, because my clients want to see what they are getting before they buy it. They are in a visual industry, and image is everything. So they need to see that my work will meet their standards. I don't think contrators will have a problem with that if they want to get a lot of work.
Third item - pay fast and furiously (not always possible if the client hasn't paid you - but I know I've floated things on my credit card to pay our people first, despite that) Treat them like you would a client. Ask THEM for feedback like you would ask a client, to make sure things are going well. Lean back, and let them do what they're great at while you find more sales - that's the joy of having them.
Absolutely! Always. The people that work for you are the lifeblood of your business. You lose them, and you have nothing. And I will definitely lean back and let them do what they do best, so that I can do what I do best.
Big one - Handle criticism in a positive manner...
Love criticism. It tells you what your weaknesses are so that you can improve your company!
...and honestly remember this - if THEY make a big mistake in doing something or implimenting something, its YOUR FAULT as the manager. YOU didn't make things clear enough. When you're paying for something its tempting to complain like you were returning a bad pair of pants to Wal-Mart... that's completely the wrong tack to take. Be responsible, be supportive.
Once again, I'm with you.
Always damn well hire someone BETTER than you! You'd think that's a given, but there's a misleading style of management that says that "you must be able to do everyone's job". If you do, you're missing out on some major synergy when you do that. And you'll be dissappointed with their work compared to yours, instead of constantly impressed, and wondering why you did things yourself for so long!
That's why I'm doing this in the first place. I want someone better than me! And once things work out, and I find the contractors that I would like to work with, I will be definitely be kicking myself in the butt wondering why I did do everything myself for so long!
Whew. A whole lot of unedited thoughts here. Hope its helpful.
VERY! Thanks, Hunter!
By the way, do you happen to have any links to a generic subcontracting contract?
How do you find them, are they local to you, do you outsource? Do you do a trial-run before you commit to a long-term relationship or do you do it on a case by case basis? How do you manage the process, how do you pay your contractors - in stages, or lump sums?
Looking for answers and there isn't a FAQ or handbook that answers these hard questions. ;)
LisaB
Third item - pay fast and furiously (not always possible if the client hasn't paid you - but I know I've floated things on my credit card to pay our people first, despite that) Treat them like you would a client. Ask THEM for feedback like you would ask a client, to make sure things are going well. Lean back, and let them do what they're great at while you find more sales - that's the joy of having them.
Having worked on a subcontract, I would say this is very good advice. I am still awaiting pay (a year later). I dumped them quick when I didn't get paid, and I take every opportunity to share my experiences with that particular company.
Unhappy customers may be bad for business, but unhappy contractors can be worse. I know for a fact that this cost them a $10k+ deal, since I had originally set them up, but then had to intervene to "share" my concerns about their reliability. :o
WBF
But how do you go about finding good contractors in the first place?
There are many sites on the net where you can post ads for freelance designers. And trust me, there are a lot of them out there. Since URL's are not allowed, I will sticky mail you some sites where you will have more than enough freelancers from which to choose.
How do you find them, are they local to you, do you outsource?
That's what's so great about this business is that they don't have to be local since pretty much everything can be done via email, instant messaging, and telephone. A lot of companies actually outsource their projects to India for cost reasons, however, I personally prefer to keep it local.
However, it is best to stick to freelancers rather than design firms for cost reasons.
Do you do a trial-run before you commit to a long-term relationship or do you do it on a case by case basis?
I will do it on a project by project basis. Remember, you are simply outsourcing the business that you can not handle. If you prefer not to use a certain designer again, you can simply say it is slow, or that you are able to handle the business that you are getting now.
How do you manage the process, how do you pay your contractors - in stages, or lump sums?
I will pay my contracters in the same manner in which the client pays me. When I get 50% of the project fee (which is required before any work is done (and I mean the after the check has cleared; I actually prefer to use PayPal since it is instant and you can accept credit cards)), I will give the designer 50% of the fee that we agreed upon, and keep my cut. When the project is finished, the client approves it (show it to the client via a temporary site on your website, not on their domain), the client pays (before it is uploaded to their domain), and the site is uploaded to their domain, I will pay the freelancer the balance of the fee.
We're exploring that idea, we're up against that wall of "we cannot handle everything that comes in"
Now if you could return the favor and tell us how you got to that point, it would be much appreciated! How are you marketing your business? Where is most of the business coming from with regards to your marketing efforts (hopefully you track your marketing, or ask your clients how they found out about you ;) )? What has been the most cost effective method of marketing your company?
from sticky mail from bunltdDo you just have them bid on a project basis - or have you established long term relationships with your subs?
If there are a few designers that can handle the job, then I may have them bid on it. However, there is more to a good web designer than just talent. Here are some of the qualities that I look for: easy to work with, reliable, hard working, honest, prompt, positive attitude, etc.
If you have a great designer who never finishes their projects on time, or who is not reliable at all, or who promises things and then doesn't deliver, or who is difficult to work with, then you can not run your business professionally, and you will not prosper. You need someone who is on the same page you are, so don't rush into anything with regards to setting up business relationships. Just "play the field." It's kind of like dating. ;)
With that said, to answer your above question, after testing the waters with some designers on a project to project basis, you may find some designers that you work very well together, and whose work you admire. So, eventually, you may end up establishing a long term relationship with them.
Another point is that there is not going to be one designer that can handle it all. You will most likely have to find a few designers who each have their strengths in different areas.
And if you could answer the above questions about marketing, Lisa, that'd be great!
Also, do you hook the client and the freelancer up together after you set up the deal, or do you act as the go between throughout the entire process (getting the content, showing proofs, etc.)?
How are you marketing your business? Where is most of the business coming from with regards to your marketing efforts? What has been the most cost effective method of marketing your company?
Good question. We've been in the business for 7 years, so it hasn't happened overnight. We focus our advertising regionally - no need to compete with the world, and in general our clients come from our city/region/state. Google has been good to us ;) and we use a typical mix of ppc/pfi to fill in the gaps. (no huge budgets)
We also belong to our local Chamber of Commerce, which has yielded clients as well as visibility. Referrals have become a large part of our strategy: whether they are warm (directly from a client) or cold (from someone who visited a client's site, but doesn't know them)
We try to keep tabs on the comptetition - what are they up to - and apply anything we learn, no secret there, it's just part of business.
Hard work, applied daily, is what it boils down to...
Hope this helps you, your answers definitely gave me food for thought.
LisaB
we use a typical mix of ppc/pfi to fill in the gaps
Sorry, but I am not familiar with those terms. What does ppc/pfi refer to?
...your answers definitely gave me food for thought.
Glad I could help!
pfi - pay for inclusion as in Inktomi, or other sites you pay to have your listing included...
LisaB
ppc - pay per click as in Google Adwords or Overture and others
pfi - pay for inclusion as in Inktomi, or other sites you pay to have your listing included...
Cool. Thanks, Lisa.
Glad to see we're all on the same lines!
Yes - I also pay 50% upfront, ASAP, and 50% afterward - acutally, it depends, sometimes its in 1/3rds which is better for cash flow for BOTH of us.
I've found my people by, well, dumb luck or fate? Depending on your point of view.
Surfing, following leads, engaging in email conversations - liking the responses, being blown away by their work. Now I'm trying to figure out if I can use them to branch out into things like print newsletters - which mostly scare the hell out of me, but not really... more services to offer...
No, none of our people are local.
LA, I like your logic about getting more work featuring their work on our site. Never quite thought of it that way - will have to take a harder look at that.
Yeah, I know what you mean about being in a visual medium - and yet - we play up everything else: service, reliability, communications knowledge - and we have a reason for everything we do visually (placement of things on the screen) - I've written 'bout this in other posts, it works to everyone's advantage because it takes away the "I don't like it" arguments that clients can give (to their determent, and ours, as none are skilled visual communicators)
Not to say that I don't think we now have kick-ass designers who can make things look really great :-) It's just that I'll likely appreciate it more than everyone else... *L* Plus, no more wasting 3 weeks racking my brain on things I'm not great at...
Thanks for the info.
sometimes its in 1/3rds which is better for cash flow for BOTH of us.
How is that? Because you get paid more often? How long does it take your guys to get a site up? I know that it varies greatly based on the size of the site, but mine are usually finished within a couple of days. So, I'm not sure how the 3 payments would work out for me. When do you ask for the second payment (1st and 3rd are obvious)?
Also, could you possibly answer the questions that I mentioned earlier:
Another question is what questions do you ask the freelancers when you are interviewing them to increase the probability of getting both an exceptional designer, and a professional, reliable, easy to work with, positive person?
Also, do you hook the client and the freelancer up together after you set up the deal, or do you act as the go between throughout the entire process (getting the content, showing proofs, etc.), in which case the client would never actually converse directly with the freelancer?
When I work as a subcontractor I dont and wouldnt want to even meet the client. The contractor pays me and I deliver to thier spec/terms not the clients. If they dont get paid its not my problem etc.
If the contractor were to ask me to liase with the client I would flatly refuse as I have my own clients and charge a lot more for that type of service - business analyis, requirements etc.
When I sub I expect all the dog work done - thats why its cheaper :)
Payment is all in one go on delivery - contracts are usually 1 or 2 days work.
HTH
When I work as a subcontractor I dont and wouldnt want to even meet the client. The contractor pays me and I deliver to thier spec/terms not the clients. If they dont get paid its not my problem etc.
If the contractor were to ask me to liase with the client I would flatly refuse as I have my own clients and charge a lot more for that type of service - business analyis, requirements etc.
When I sub I expect all the dog work done - thats why its cheaper
Payment is all in one go on delivery - contracts are usually 1 or 2 days work.
Thank you for clearing that up, aspdaddy!
By the way, do you allow the contractor to put "created by 'hiscompany.com'" in the credits of the websites that you create?
They can do whatever they want once im paid. ;)
LOL. Good to hear.
sometimes its in 1/3rds which is better for cash flow for BOTH of us.
How is that? Because you get paid more often? How long does it take your guys to get a site up? I know that it varies greatly based on the size of the site, but mine are usually finished within a couple of days. So, I'm not sure how the 3 payments would work out for me. When do you ask for the second payment (1st and 3rd are obvious)?
- No, don't always but I'm thinking we might do that in the future (We were doing 1/2 and 1/2, but getting to that last 1/2 can stretch a bit too much if the project goes long).
I have one freelancer who asked for 1/3rd to start - then another 1/3 10 days in. And then the last 1/3 when her work (site writing in this case) was done. She got most of her work done within the first 10 days, I think. Did a fantastic job.
Time to build: we're building sites that are 40 - 80 pages, with busy companies. 3 months is our dev time, though I imagine we can cut that down now. Mostly its waiting for the clients to get materials, etc.
Another question is what questions do you ask the freelancers when you are interviewing them to increase the probability of getting both an exceptional designer, and a professional, reliable, easy to work with, positive person?
I don't have any specific questions. I just email them, talk to them, build a rapport. I dunno, you can just tell by a lot of things - how fast they respond to email, etc. Previous work they've done. Their general attitude. Sorry that's not very helpful.
Mostly I try to start people on small projects first.
Also, do you hook the client and the freelancer up together after you set up the deal, or do you act as the go between throughout the entire process (getting the content, showing proofs, etc.), in which case the client would never actually converse directly with the freelancer?
While I always tell (brag) about our freelancers to our clients by name, I handle all the communications between the two - as Aspdaddy said, 's what I'm paid to do. And as service is our thing, by doing so I make sure that the quality of service remains level. And most of all it saves the freelancer time, and thus us money. Good deal for everyone.
Right now, we have it in our heads that we don't/won't take jobs below $5,000.
But I suppose I could track down some Indian or other off-shore companies to do very inexpensive sites. I guess I figure that we have this whole, big semi-process in place to do things "right", and that I won't be able to scale that back to handle the $2,000 client...
I don't know. What are your thoughts?
By the way, do you go back and forth showing proofs to the client, and then going back to the freelancer with the revisions? And how often do you allow the client to do that? Until he's satisfied? What if it gets out of hand?
We state upfront to the client - 1 revision cycle. We talk out what they want to revise, and why.
We also point out in the contract that we agreed to these specific terms - and although we'd be *happy* to change things BEYOND that one revision at that stage, it *will* cost extra, and would you like a quote before we go ahead and do that?
Again - key to this is controlling expectations. We do so by starting w/ a rough sketch of the site, literally by hand, then cleaning that up into a "medium fidelity" document - Photoshop'ed boxes and lines to show all the placement of the elements on the page, as we agreed.
Once that's signed off only THEN do we pass that to the graphic designer - who uses that as a starting point to design around. You'd think it might hinder them, but actually for a good designer, it gives them guides to work around. So, end result, we have very few legitimate revisions after the fact.
Although - on a recent project, a new guy came in at the end - and we had to point out we had worked all these details out previously... we're waiting on the response, but I'll wager he'll stick with it, vs. pay us more to redesign...
