Forum Moderators: LifeinAsia
I have posted in other forums and on Usenet about this and I am learning that asking about hourly rates will pretty much guarantee little if any response. Ok, so it does depend on too many factors to simply affix an hourly rate. But I must find a way of showing the client in this situation the value of what he will be getting. I could simply tell the client what I will do, how much time I will spend doing it and what I think it's worth and let him take it or leave it. His dilema will be not having any sort of baseline so as to know that he is getting a good value for his money. I can't say as I would like that myself.
Or is there another way?
This query is project specific.
If I were going into the webmaster business it would actually be easier I think.
I am entering into a project where I will be bartering my time as a webmaster (among other things such as research, marketing and promotion) in return for goods and services.
The other party understandably wishes to quantify the value of my services to arrive at a comparable value in said goods and services.
My commitment will be for one year in duration, at the end of which we will look at the existing situation and go from there.
What I will be doing is fixing existing website problems such as broken links, updating "About Us" information into a more compelling form which will involve copywriting and updating images and design elements. This will eventually involve a site rebuild. Also I will be doing research in regard to the clients name being mentioned on web boards, what prospective clients are interested in and industry trends. I will also develop new site functionality such as multimedia, video, opt in newsletter and possibly a board like this one. Also daily maintenance will be conducted by checking the site's functionality, checking for dead links and performing administrative functions with regard to any mailing lists and boards that are added. There will also be a marketing and promotion aspect to this such as doing research on competitors, tracking industry trends and enhancing search engine results. I will approach my efforts in this project as though this site were my own which means I will spend more time with it than many contractors might.
I am certain the client will receive more in value than he will have to give to me and that's ok, it's an area of interest, something I would be spending some of my time with in any event. But how does he know this?
Before he will move forward, I must be able to in some way attach a dollar amount to my efforts.
I know that often rates are arrived at on a case by case basis depending upon location, complexity of the work done etc., but since no money is going to change hands in this case the dollar value is theoretical.
Are there any guidelines that might help?
I would greatly appreciate any input that would allow me to do this, it is extremely important.
Thank you for your time,
Ken
Is this an all or nothing barter or are you exchanging services on a weekly/monthly basis based on the amount of time that you are working?
I understand his concern. For the sake of accounting, he needs to have an absolute value assigned to your services to balance his books.
The easiest way I can think to do this would be for you to set an hourly rate that would be a blended combination of market rates for html/seo/analysis and to bill hourly for your work performed. In exchange you would get store/service credit instead of cash.
One thing to keep in mind when you are negotiating is to get cost of goods and not retailer rates from him in exchange for your work.
Basically I will be giving him services over a period of time and he will give me a finished product or products. (very high ticket items, maybe over $10k in retail value)
As far as basing my figures on his cost, it seems that he would need to figure it based on what he could get in cash for the same product if he sold it on the open market. It's better for him this way of course but it seems the fair way to do it. Can you expand upon why you feel "cost" is more fair?
Thanks for your response,
Ken
Say you work 10 hours at $10 an hour. That is a cost of $100 to you. Now you exhange that for a product that retails for $100, but only cost him $60. That is not a fair exchange.
In my experience with retail, most people will give you something discounted or at cost when you have a working relationship with them as a courtesy. It does not cost him anything to order another item for you when he is placing his orders, so why should he mark up the product to full retail?
Just my opinion on the matter. There may be things about the situation that I don't know about like him doing a free installation or throwing in some other benefits to you, but I would try to get an equal exchange of value.
So, one possibility would be to set it up on a trial basis. You'd keep track of your time for a month, for example. The time spent is going to be important to you, mostly, so keep track of the kinds of work you've done, too. Better yet, monitor the important stats. For example, has your work increased his inquiries or profits from the site? Then review the results with the owner. You may have to juggle things so both of you feel good about the exchange.
Having said that, it is true that you'll want to get a fair return for your time. There are a few good books that talk about going rates for web work. The Graphic Artists Guild has a good one. There are also web sites that show rates depending on geographic region, skill level, etc. They might help justify your fee.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Yours is the most recent bit of input I have gotten from all of the queries I have out there and I think, the most "spot on".
I have arrived on my own at the conclusions you lay out in your reply. You're right, it's about value and results and in the final proposal I am fleshing out I have done exactly as you suggested. I have setup a series of milestones at which an evaluation of the effectiveness of my efforts will take place. I know this business owner will be able to quantify clearly the effect of what I will be doing.
I will keep a log of work done and time spent mainly because while he has worked with others who might have had a larger "webmaster" skill set, he had no idea of their direction, what they were currently working on, or what they planned to do to grow his business.
What I lack in webmaster skills I will more than make up for in marketing, promotion and creative skills and just plain ol "interest". My being an enthusiast in the area of his business is a huge advantage for him.
For the nuts and bolts I have already embarked upon self education to fill in the gaps in my skill set but I have already been in touch with consultants who will advise and ensure that an professional job gets done.
This venture is an unusual proposition in that it will not follow many of the precepts associated with either a working webmaster or one who is seeking to get into the business of becoming one. I will not have other clients and will seek none. And for me, merely working with this individual will be a benefit, a learning opportunity in an area I am passionate about.
So there are many aspects of this that would be of no interested to the average web professional.
Thanks for confirming the wisdom in my direction, it took some time to get there, but arriving eventually is what it's all about.
Thanks again,
Ken
Hope you all have fun!
But, it was having some skills and recognising an opportunity that allowed this to happen. I called this guy simply as a prospective client and happened to point out, in the course of our conversation some things that were wrong with his website. One was a "spring special" that expired (according to the copy) in June of 2004, and the fact that the majority of the text on his front page (copy rich with keywords) was contained in a graphic file, invsible to search engines. He explained how his last webmaster had abandoned him and how there were so many things he wanted to do. One was to be able to perfom the simple task of uploading updated product photographs to his server.
So I offered to help set him up with a good FTP client, WS_FTP Pro which I use and one thing led to another...
The thing I'm stoked about is that for me to obtain the products I'm asking for on the open market I would have had to spend $15,000 easily. That would have taken alot of nickles and dimes over a course of months, maybe years.
The good news for me is, I pitched my proposal to him this morning by email and I sat waiting for a response and my pessimistic side kept expecting an email back asking "Are you out of your $#@@#$ mind?"
But, he called me on the phone and accepted the proposal.
So now it's time to set about fixing his website, tying up loose ends but most importantly, getting him some more business.
Thankfully in the niche market he serves most of the competition is relatively clueless.
Anyway, thanks again for the input and the kind words.
I will most likely be back in another forum seeking specific advise for the problem du jour.
Ken
