Forum Moderators: LifeinAsia
I have a couple of questions though.
1) How much notice should I give my employer, and how should I give the notice (oral, writing, etc)? I do not want to burn any bridges.
2) For those of you who have left your day jobs, do you regret it? Would you do anything differently?
3) Finally, is there any sort of social stigma associated with not going to a "day job"? I realize that running a business can be a fulltime job in and of itself, but do people (friends, family, and new acquaintances) treat you differently if they learn you work from home? My gut feeling tells me that if they do treat you differently, then they are probably jealous (considering that many self employed people make much more $$ than they could at a dayjob, and have a lot more free time), but I would not want to seem like a "bum" with "no job" in their eyes.
This could be an interesting topic for us to delve into the how-to's of leaving your day job. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I live in a small town in the middle of washington state. Seattle 130 miles to the west. Spokane 200 miles to the east. I got into computers so attended the local college for 3 years and got 2 asscociates degrees, computer science and computer administration. Got 6 computer certs also, A+, MCP and so on. While in college I noticed that computer jobs in my area were almost non-existant. In my 2nd year I signed up with a webhost and started trying to learn everything about web development. At my time at college they only offered one class on web development. It covered html, javascript and thats it.
After college I found the only tech jobs I could get was answering tech support phones. I found that most of the people I was working with hadn't even been to college, some didn't even have computers. I have tried applying at about 7 entry-level tech jobs that have opened in my area. Turned down each time for lack of experience. Couldn't even get a interview.
I decided that to seperate myself from the rest of the community college grads I would have to go well above and beyond what the college was teaching. Since college I have done nothing but practice web development. I have been trying to put every ounce of effort into it. I am on my 3rd site. I have yet to even take the under construction sign off of any site I have worked on. I have put endless hours in to my current site, its over 1,000 unique pages and counting. I want to generate advertising from local business on my site. I feel that I can have the site up in about 3 months *crossing fingers*.
I feel comfortable now with web development but I fear what comes next. Well at college I took a few accounting classes, a law class, and some business classes but I feel like I know nothing about running a business. I would like to turn this website into something that generates a modest profit. Not enough to live off of but maybe $400-$500 a month.
I know I should get a business license and maybe a p.o.b. for the business, but what else will I need? Should I find a accountant or just try and learn some software. I guess my biggest fear is the taxman. Also, do I need a lawyer and how am I going to get the money to pay all these people? Arrgh. I make next to nothing $8 LOL. My town sucks.
Should I,
1) Go and get a bachelors degree first?
2) Take some business classes?
3) Ask others on webmasterworld their opinions?
4) Jump in with both feet and hope I don't drown?
Not enough to live off of but maybe $400-$500 a month.
Why not make it into something can live off of?
P.S. Get that bachelor's degree!
from my experience, I took MIS/Business in college and got a bachelors and it served me very little in terms of what I am doing now (web development). I basically learned what I am doing now by myself working on a hobby site of mine.
I'd suggest you 1) work more on your website and try to make it with technologies that you will make you more valuable: everyone and their dads (well,not trying to be rude, you too are included in this group) know html and javascript. Unless you are artistically inclined, this does not make you marketeable. once you start dabbling in web technologies, you have to choose a focus, be it design, or development, i.e. presentation vs application. Either refine your knowledge through learning photoshop/fireworks/flash, or php/asp/sql.
When you write about how you haven't taken off your 'under construction' sign on your sites, that is a classic amateur mistake(if indeed you meant that literally). All sites are always under construction or revision. How weird would it be for MSN to have a 'under construction' sign? and they just went through a revision recently.
Excellent advice. I'm getting ready to quit my day job and have felt diversity is the key. I'm ready if one site goes down to not miss a beat.
My income is about even with my day job, so I have awhile to go. I will have no problem quitting my day job. We are paying off everything except the house. I want to be debt free when I quit my job.
Again, be diverse. Be ready for hiccups.
wellzy
once you start dabbling in web technologies, you have to choose a focus, be it design, or development, i.e. presentation vs application. Either refine your knowledge through learning photoshop/fireworks/flash, or php/asp/sql.
My mistake, I was pointing out how useless my college classes were. I use php/mysql for my webpages. I am proficient in flash, fireworks, and quite a few other programs for webdesign. I steer clear of javascript as much as possible. My pages are xhtml 1.1 and css validated. I know that doesn't mean much, just making a point that i'm not just doing it as a hobby.
That is something else I noticed about college. Even though I had a 3.8 gpa I hardly learned anything in my classes. Most of the time the teachers would read from a book or lecture about stuff that the book covered. I always assumed it was because it was a community college and I knew not to expect much. I would say i've learned 10 times as much outside of college than in. Thats my only hold back to getting a bachelors. I don't want to sit through any more classes where teachers read books to you. If I have questions about a book i'm reading then the almighty internet seems to be the best place to get the most up to date current answer. It seems all the jobs I have tried to get want experience. It would kill me to blow another 20-30g's on college and still get turned down for lack of real-world experience.
Best thing to do is work at not working. This means build your online business to run themselves as much as possible, THEN move on to another one. Don't stop or get bogged down. You will eventually be so diverse that failure will be next to impossible.
Lol, thats me too. I'm months away from finishing my site and I keep thinking about my next site. My current site will be content supported by advertising, I want to dive right into a ecommerce site after that. After that I would like to start a web design site. After that I would like to get a unmanaged server and host my own sites. After that...
1) If you can cope with a degree, take one.
2) Take the best paying jobs you are offered and don't be scared to move around.
3) Continually apply for jobs you think are just beyond your capabilities. They're not.
4) If you're going to work in IT, try to work for an investment bank. They pay well.
5) If you want to work for yourself, having ideas all the time is great. Actually trying them, however, is the essential bit.
I received a first class batchelor's degree and a master's degree from two top tier universities. Both degrees were in computing related fields.
My first job was on a technical help desk, answering telephones. I worked with the kind of people twist described, and worse. It was depressing beyond belief. I took the job because:
a) it was a 35 hour week as opposed to the 50 hour+ week that "prestigious" graduate-hiring management consultancies like BCG and McKinsey would have expected, and
b) it was paying a high hourly rate just before the .com boom. This rate meant that I took home almost twice what a management consultancy would pay me. A pro-rata income approximately 3 times that of a consultancy.
I lasted for 3 months. I walked out in disgust at my neanderthal manager, my environment and at myself.
The .com boom started; those three months of "experience" (ha!) were enough. The degrees ensured I was interviewed for more positions than I would have been otherwise; that's all they were: an entry pass to an interview. I never, ever used any element of my studies in any of my jobs. But they a) meant I had lots of fun as a student for 4 years, b) paid for themselves* once I took the jobs I was interviewed for and c) provided a safety net of knowledge and confidence which was lacking in many of my competing, but uneducated, colleagues.
* I say 'paid for themselves' - being in the UK I didn't have to pay. I do know what it would have cost had I been a foreign student, however, and it would have been worth it.
Now the .com boom is over, you will indeed find that you will be turned away for not having experience. But you will get turned away even more if you don't have a degree. Remember - the degree proves nothing about your inate ability, capability or suitability for a particular job; it's primarily an easy way for a typical recruiter to make a huge boring pile of resumes a little smaller.
The market is terrible and I sympathize with anyone trying to start a corporate career in IT at this time. When I started around 8 years ago, it was absurdly easy to get a well paying job; today it simply isn't.
I suggest that if you're just starting out, then you should take a job that gives you enough free time to experiment with creating and running your own business on the side. If your own business fails, you will at least have an employment history and the "experience" so dearly valued by those who should know better.
I did that myself for a year. I left my full-time job 6 months ago to work on my own, and I'm now very happy. I always hated working for anyone else, and I always wanted a way to earn money alone. I just kept trying crazy idea after crazy idea until I stumbled across one that worked. I didn't leave my day job until I had earned 5 times my annual salary for 12 straight months, however; my business and the job market are so fragile that if it all stops tomorrow, I can expect to be looking for the right "job" for a good 12 months - and that's with qualifications *and* so-called experience.
[edited by: corpuscle at 2:12 pm (utc) on Jan. 13, 2004]
I was much younger and didn't think of all the possibilities back then, but if they get the idea you might be competition or working against them for those last two weeks (even if its completely the wrong idea) they will choose to cut their losses. HR will advise management to do this many times (I have read several stories like mine in the past years).
I can't answer your first question however I can offer some input on the second.
I've found a more positive attitude towards me owning my own business. People are shocked and amazed, but this may be because I am only 19 years of age,(I started at 16/17).
I think some people are jelaous of the fact you don't have a boss, and have so much control over your own life, that people who work for some cliche cruel boss, don't have.
I'm not putting down working for anyone by the way, this is just my experience.
Jon
#1 Consider marking out a strict schedule for yourself. As many people have noted you will find yourself obsesively working on your site(s). In the long term this can be bad for you, bad for your site(s), and bad for your personal relationships. I have found that with a strict goal oriented schedule I work less and get more done.
#2 Leave it.
But you have to make sure to dedicate time to staying on top of your game, realizing that your game isn't Flash, or Java, but internet marketing. If you don't stay up on it, you will find your rates going down as more people come out to do the work you are doing.
One Poster here told me real good advice: "Read WebmasterWorld 1 Hour per day" While this may not fit specifically with your biz, find some resources like this to follow on a regular basis.
Above all, good luck with it. You are fortunate to have the skills and the guts to try it. Failing doesn't make you a failure. You learn more from stuff that doesn't work. GOOD LUCK!
...who just won the lottery.
>I have yet to even take the under construction sign off of any site I have worked on. I have put endless hours in to my current site, its over 1,000 unique pages and counting. I want to generate advertising from local business on my site. I feel that I can have the site up in about 3 months *crossing fingers*.<
We had 250 plus pages of unique content live for three months (with constant tweaking and updating) before approaching our first prospective paying customer, and even then, we had to agree to get the money on the first booking (which took was 3 weeks - this was back in the days when the web was just another "fad" you understand, and most people hadn't even heard of it yet, let alone had a connection to it! Now we get almost all of our payment up front in advance.)
Also we were/are both experienced advertising sales people, so my advice to you is:
1. Go learn or get face to face advertising sales and marketing experience, either by doing something like telemarketing (what doesn't kill you makes you stronger) or volunteer to sell space/time for a local non profit. It'll help you get over the fear of rejection.
2. Get hold of Hank Trishlers' "No Bull Selling". Not only good advice, but a good chuckle too.
3. As someone else said, ALL web sites which aspire to any kind of longevity are constantly "under contruction". I tell people my primary site is like painting the Sydney Harbour Bridge, by the time I've got to the end and finished, it's time start back at the beginning.
4. Get involved in your local community as a volunteer on committees, non profit association boards etc.. Not only will you get valuable experience in stuff you never dreamed of, but you'll get valuable networking (read customers/clients) contacts as well as raising your profile in the community.
When we moved to our local area 10 years ago, we became involved in a number of local organisations which we had both personal and professional interest in, and put up our hands to be secretary, newsletter publishers, database managers, PR and publicity managers etc.
Secretaries and meeting minute secretaries are in particular demand.
Even if you never take your site to the next level (income earning), you'll gain more than you ever dreamed.
Best of luck!
Cheers and Hooroo
JP
2. Get hold of Hank Trishlers' "No Bull Selling". Not only good advice, but a good chuckle too.
Off to the library it is.
This doesn't necessarily help with the social implications (friends will be jealous/shocked... amused while you struggle, amazed when there is success, and sympathetic when problems occur....
However, regarding the credit... My business is incorporated, and I am "paid" a salary (some months it doesn't happen, and I play catch up. I use a payroll service, Intuit Payroll is built into Quickbooks and easy to use.
As a result, for my personal taxes I get a W-2 (haven't made enough for "profits to kick in yet," but that should be a 1099-DIV).
As a result, on credit applications I am employed. When getting an apartment, my credit checks are fine, but some landlords want to meet me first when they realize that the only person that can confirm my employment is me.
However, I avoid some of the social/credit stigmas of being self employed, because I have a job, I go to the office, and now we have a staff.
Oh: get an accountant... my saving a few hundred bucks is costing us thousands to clean up. Have an accountant that will set up systems, tell you what you can do yourself, and bring a bookkeeper in for the details. Otherwise, the paperwork of running a business can starve the business from your attention.
Take care of yourself, I didn't, and I'm still paying off the credit cards from starting things up.
Alex
I have to reply to mbennie who said:
"If you have to ask advice here about the best way to quit your job you may not be cut out to be an entrepreneur. "
This is an ignorant response, and I think most here would agree. Running a business takes foresight and an ability to make effective decisions utilizing this foresight. As I said before, my business has been successful and very lucrative for over 3 years. So, I think the question of my entrepreneurial ability is a moot point. I hope everyone here continues to ask questions in order to make the best business and life decisions they can.
Regards
I agree. My biggest concerns about leaving my career to work fulltime in my entrepreneurial endeavors are social. I fear I will always be defending what I do to members of a judgemental society who feel that if you don't have a 9 to 5 career you might be a loser. Again, these judgements are based on jealousy and ignorance, but who wants to be shunned? And I fear losing the social contact I have at work now.
[edited by: crobb305 at 6:30 pm (utc) on Jan. 14, 2004]
So - I agree with everyone, except that I would give MUCH more notice than 2 weeks if it makes little odds to you. Being there long enough to help train in a successor will be appreciated.
But, after a while, you may feel that what your personal definition of "making a success of going it alone" is to start employing people. Bit of a dilemma. But a nice one to have.
As for the credit thing, if you already own a house, then you won't have too many credit problems (assuming you pay the mortgage).
Self employment let me choose what I wanted to do, and to do it as and when I liked. I tend to get bored quickly, so I work in a number of very diverse fields, with a lot of different clients, which limits my ability to focus on becoming an 'expert' in any one field so I can commandeer the really high rates.
However, it's reasonably fun, I get lots of variety, I get to commute when I feel like it (perhaps a couple of times a month for meetings), and I don't starve! If I were the sort to have a wife and kids though, I would probably need to focus a lot more on a specific industry and bring in more per month, but variety is the spice of life, I feel. :-)
So, my advice, which I don't personally use, is to really FOCUS if you want the big money. Spreading yourself out over lots of different areas, as I do, is no way to get rich. That's how most of the people at WebmasterWorld got to making the big money.. they had a single goal, and focused entirely on it.
Consider working part-time if able like an earlier poster suggested. I'm a meteorologist with the NWS and that option has been working out great for me.
Bob
For example mine costs 650.00 when I left my last job, you must ASK for it, and it will run out in 18 months from your last day at work. After that you will be eligible for "group" (no questions asked) for the self employed provided you can prove self employement. Schedule C and or D from your tax return will do in most cases.
Same thing with credit. Schedule C and D is the bare min. you need to prove lucritive self employement.
Moral of the story is do your taxes correctly, or have a pro do them because a lot rides on them being done right.
>>And I fear losing the social contact I have at work now.
twist
>>Not enough to live off of but maybe $400-$500 a month.
JudgeJeffries
>>lazy b*****d who just won the lottery
My wife accepts that I have to do the work when it is there - to carry you through the lean times. I've had weeks when I've been almost down to frying cream crackers but I've NEVER given up.
Yes its a great feeling of freedom but it does bring new worries, new problems and somehow you have to find the courage to overcome them.
