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Why is a site PR4 but with 8,210 Back links !

   
4:52 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Just noticed the link to [bestBBS.com...] and saw that it has only PR4 but with >8000 Back links. Obviously it is under construction at the moment but with this amount of back links from PR7 pages I would have expoected it to b e higher.

Is there some receognition by Google that it is a single page site? and a linit on the PR set?

5:06 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



I 'm guessing a lot of it has to do with the fact that those 8000+ links are all from the same domain. I don't think it has any from another domain.
5:16 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



atadams,

<I 'm guessing a lot of it has to do with the fact that those 8000+ links are all from the same domain.>

Why would that make a difference? Many, or all, of those links are on pages with decent PR. I don't believe domains are taken into account when calculating PR.

5:19 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator rogerd is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



Nick, the domains DO count. Getting links from 5000 sites is not the same as getting links from every page on a 5000 page site.
5:20 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jeremy_goodrich is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



What roger said -> was going to post, but my long winded reply was far too convoluted as to help much. :)
5:37 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



GG wrote pr is calculated on a page by page bases.
I think that hasn't changed.

Wouldn't he have said site by site if that were so? i'm intrested to know.

Also internal pages of one domain do show up with the link command when the pages are pr>4. Woudn't you think those wouldn't show up if there were not 'calculated'?

[edited by: ikbenhet1 at 5:43 pm (utc) on Feb. 21, 2003]

5:41 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jeremy_goodrich is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



Google doesn't tell people how they 'score' pages.

If they did, what fun would optimization be? We'd just print everything GoogleGuy said, and call it a day - there'd be no need for 'discussion' at that point.

6:09 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



rogerd,

<Nick, the domains DO count. Getting links from 5000 sites is not the same as getting links from every page on a 5000 page site.>

Do you have evidence of this? Based on Google's original algorithm (which has probably changed since, but to what extent is unknown to us), it counts links on pages only, and puts no weight on the site that those links come from.

If:

www.widgets.com/index.php
and
www.widgets2.com/index.php

...both link to a site, that's exactly the same number of backlinks as:

www.widgets.com/index.php
and
www.widgets.com/index2.php

...linking to a site. The PR is calculated in the same way, and no more or less weight is assigned to the PR because the links came from one site or two.

If you believe otherwise, please post how you're coming to this conclusion :-).

6:24 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



I agree with NickCoons - it doesn't matter if the links are from different domains or not. The fact that bestBBS.com has only PR4 can be explained if you are looking at the PR of the linking sites and the numbers of links. The site which contributes most is www.webmasterworld.com/home.htm. This site has PR7. However, there are more than 100 links on this site which leads (estimated) to PR4.
6:30 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jeremy_goodrich is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



Nick -> don't you think it would be a whole lot easier to spam google if your thoughts were correct?

If Google hasn't changed their algorithm, then why doesn't the spam I helped companies create a few years ago still dominating the serps?

By spam in this case, I mean tons of interlinked domains with zero content, auto generated, and cloaked to the hilt.

Since these pages are gone, it stands to reason that 1) they were penalized or 2) Google changed their algo.

It's both, because if not, then I could recreate the *exact* same spam, using the same techniques, and OWN Google.

That's not gonna happen -> at least, not in that fashion.

6:50 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator rogerd is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



Nick, I know how we can settle this (with Brett's help). I'll provide two of my domains with similar PR. He'll link to one from every page on WebmasterWorld. For the other, he'll ask members to link from their PR5 or higher home pages until that site has 5,000 or so links.

Then, we'll wait a year to be sure things are stable, and evaluate the PR of each site. We could leave the links in place after that as an ongoing experiment. I'd agree to report back every month or two to keep members up to date. ;)

6:52 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jeremy_goodrich is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



Roger, no - I insist - let me throw up two of my domains for the links :)

Or how about - you get the WebmasterWorld one - and I get the thousands of PR 5 + links from the members various domains?

<---- Sure, I'll report back how it does. From the beach. Sipping one of those things with a paper umbrella.

6:54 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



No guys I insist let me do the 2 domains! Ill still report back from home on how it goes. (I live in FL beach is 10 min away.)
6:54 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Content is king?

Only 1 page so far.

7:00 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



I have a hard time believing that, at this stage in the game, Google treats 8,000 links from one domain the same as one link each from 8,000 domains.

We all know there is a difference in the quality of those links. You can bet Google knows it too.

7:15 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Roger,

This is a bold statement and I have seen no evidence to support this, have you?

7:18 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jeremy_goodrich is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



mfishy, roger and I are both mistaken.

BestBBS is penalized -> yep. PageRank hasn't changed since day 1. Google's algorithm is static.

Once you have mastered the ways of the Jedi, only then will Google truly rank your site.

What you need to do is plug your ears and hum during the google update...and whilst that happens, and your body begins to rise off the floor - don't panic!

Just keep humming till your rank rises...I'm sure it will.

7:23 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



This is a bold statement and I have seen no evidence to support this, have you?

[bestBBS.com...]

7:26 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



I'm not saying PR hasn't changed. I'm just saying that PR is calculated by page not domain and that all links count.

I hope you feel better for that rant

7:39 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jeremy_goodrich is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



>I hope you feel better for that rant

Sorry about that. Didn't mean to offend - I think my humour needs work this morning, and I need more coffee. :) Cheers.

you've got stickymail, mfishy

10:34 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



How bout this theory:

Most all the pages that link to BestBBS.com are threads that have "esitmated page rank"...

The threads themselves are not actually linked to from other sites and the page rank is just carried down from the WebmasterWorld main page's PR.

10:47 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Bad theory: If the threads themselves are not actually linked to from other sites and the page rank is just carried down from the WebmasterWorld main page's PR then they wouldn't appear as backlink.

The only reason that the PR have changed is probably that there is just one page left and therefore no contribution to PR from the site itself.

11:45 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



When NickCoons originally asked for evidence, I thought of this. ( But I'm just remembering what I've read elsewhere on this site.)

I remember reading that making your site bigger and bigger, adding more and more pages, has diminishing returns. I recall reading that after about 500 pages, adding more pages linking to your homepage, doesn't give the same degree of PR boost to your homepage that the 1st 500 pages gave. Perhaps someone can remember where that thread is, and reference it.

Another suggestion was made a few months ago, during one of the update threads, where someone thought they noticed an algorithm change, whereby multiple internal links seemed to transfer less value than before, for big sites over a certain size. Someone else seemed to notice the same effect.

It wouldn't surprise me that Google could easily implement such an algorithm change. Nobody can guarantee that One Page = One PR vote anymore, because creating more and more pages to create more votes is too easy to abuse.

11:50 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member eliteweb is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



Well everyone with a website should link to the homepage for bestbbs ;) that way it will have higher greenness. However for a single page site, that is good green.
11:59 pm on Feb 21, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



There is an inbound links filter and it has been in use for awhile. So far I can tell you, it does filter links from a single domain or groups of domains. How many links before you trip the filter? I don't have an exact number. The filter seems to be affected by total inbound links/links from a single source. The single source includes insite linking also.
1:15 am on Feb 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



<Nick -> don't you think it would be a whole lot easier to spam google if your thoughts were correct?>

Not really. Because pages full of spam would theoretically be penelized and not able to pass PR. If you're talking about adding hundreds of pages full of content just to link to your home page, then I don't consider that spamming, because content is what Google wants.

First off, going back to the theory that any page contributes PR, and the domain from which it originates (yours or someone else's) means nothing..

If I create a 1000-page website, then it's probably going to have a structure such as this:

Home page -> 10 Sub-Pages -> Each to 10 Sub-Pages -> Each to 10 Sub-Pages.. or something of that sort.

As we know, the toolbar PR is different than the actual PR (the "actual PR" being a number that Google doesn't tell us), but the toolbar is an indicator of actual PR with a logrithmic scale of 6-8 that may look something like this:

Toolbar PR -> Actual PR
0 -> 0
1 -> 1
2 -> 8
3 -> 64
4 -> 512
5 -> 4096
6 -> 32768
7 -> 262144
8 -> 2097152
9 -> 16777216
10 -> 134217728

These conversions are speculation on my part, but they are of that form.

So my brand new site full of 1000 brand new pages (each page having a theoretical actual PR of 1 prior to indexing) means that my site has a total PR of 1000 which it will pass around based on the internal and external linking.

So first off, each page has about 11 links on it, one always to the home page, and 10 other miscellaneous internal links. Each page's actual PR is 1, take 85% of that (dampening factor), and divide it by 11, which means that each link is going to receive a PR of 0.08 boost. 1000 of these links to the home page means it has about an 80 (I'm simplifying) once it's indexed. That will give it a toolbar PR of (low) 3. In my experience, this sounds like a common initial PR (and lower if the site has fewer pages).

Now, I'm going to go out and get some backlinks from other sites. A site, for example, that has a toolbar PR5 on their page that links to me, and they have 19 other links on that site, are going to give me between 174.08 and 1392.6 additional actual PR (based on the chart above). That's much more PR than any of my internal pages could give me. The PR of my internal pages does not increase substantially on their own because nobody, or few people, link to them.. they link to my home page. Because of this, the PR that my internal pages can give to the home page many times is less than what I can get elsewhere.

So.. am I going to get a higher PR if 1000 other sites link to me than if 1000 of my own pages link to me? Probably, because the pages of those external sites very likely have a higher PR.

Does this mean that Google puts less weight on pages from the same domain? No, it means that they put less weight on pages that have less PR.

But they very well may put less weight on multiple pages coming from a single domain, or they may limit the amount of links to a page from a single domain as a few have suggested. The number of links to BestBBS resulting in a PR4 seems to support one of those theories.. but I'd hope to find something else as well before becoming a hardcore believer in these ideas.

2:40 am on Feb 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



[Now, I'm going to go out and get some backlinks from other sites. A site, for example, that has a toolbar PR5 on their page that links to me, and they have 19 other links on that site, are going to give me between 174.08 and 1392.6 additional actual PR (based on the chart above).]

Are you saying that when you are getting a reciprocal link to another site you are getting the benefit of their links which could or could not be relevant to your site in varying degrees?

2:58 am on Feb 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Amras,

<Are you saying that when you are getting a reciprocal link to another site you are getting the benefit of their links which could or could not be relevant to your site in varying degrees?>

I'm saying that if a page as a toolbar PR5, then based on my "representative" chart, I can only know that their actual PR is between 4096 (the lowest PR5) and 32767 (32768 begins PR6):

(4096 * 0.85) / 20 ~= 174.08
-or-
(32767 * 0.85) / 20 ~= 1392.6

The total amount of actual PR given to each link on that page.

4:52 am on Feb 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member digitalghost is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



Nick, spend less time looking at that little green bar, and more time developing content. :)

The Google Gremlins chuckle late at night over TB PR discussions they have read at WebmasterWorld.

Somewhere, the goals get lost. The question shouldn't be, "Why is a site PR4 but with 8,210 Back Links?" but rather, "How should I set my goals in order to reach #1 in the SERPS for my 800 keyphrases"?

If the little green bar vanished from everyone's toolbar would the questions change? Then think about the questions that would still be pertinent if the little green bar vanished. Those are the important questions.

5:28 am on Feb 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



I had an almost identical example for a new site. I linked from every page on my hub site and I got a PageRank of 4 for the new site. There were about 350 inbound links. The following update I had incoming links from 10 additional domains--up to PageRank 5.

Another example you can use to help draw a conclusion. Take a look at the Backlink TouchGraph:
[touchgraph.com...]
But look at the overall concept. Google ranks sites highly because they are hubs. You can't be a hub with only one spoke. Potentially, if Webmasterworld had several PR7 "hub type" pages, bestBBS might have benefited enough to get a higher PageRank.

This 37 message thread spans 2 pages: 37
 

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