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Getting closer to the top spot

Search engine positioning

         

spikedo55

4:10 am on Feb 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Okay folks. Please break something down for me. I have a site that gives out (this is just an example)"car buying tips." I'm number on Google for "car buying tips" but I really want to be number 1 for "car buying" because that's more searched on key phrase.

What are the basic steps to getting higher placement on "car buying" searches? As of now, even placing #1 on "car buying tips" my site doesn't show up in the top 50 for "car buying".

I have been steadily building my links with sites that have good PRs. But I feel my problem is with the key phrase. However, "car buying tips" is everywhere on my site so I can't understand why I wouldn't do better.

Sorry if I rambled a bit. It's hard describing the situation generically.

Buckley

4:56 am on Feb 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



I'm also having the exact same problem. I'm not in the top 50 on Google for "specific keyword - general keyword" but ranked number 1 on Google within 2 months for "specific Keyword - general keyword -information".

My only explanation is that the 2 word phrase is so much more competative that you have to work a heck of a lot harder to crack the top 20 or 30.

More content rich pages specific to the 2 word phrase is how i'm trying to raise my rankings for the more popular 2 word phrase.

Sorry i can't offer more help but it's good to know that there are plenty of us with the same dilema....as this gives us more chance as a group to solve the problem.

Macguru

6:11 am on Feb 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Hi spikedo55,

Buckley is right a 2 word keyphrase is more competitive than a 3 word keyphrase. To have an rough idea about how much more competive it is, a rule of thumb is to count how many results are given for each query. The more results, the more competition you have.

You can get more focused numbers searching for you query between quotes " ". This will tell you how many sites are using the exact query. To know how many serious competitors you have you have to use allintitle: your query. This will give you the number of sites potentially targeting this keyphrase (at least those who cared to give a proper title to the page.

Look at these results for a bit. Then make sure you have proper content balance in targeted page. Here is good start :

Brett's quick rank (good) [webmasterworld.com]

Then the rough idea is to chase inbound links like a dog in heat to increase your Page Rank. Getting your query in anchor text from these links is important.

This one is good too.

Successful Site in 12 Months with Google Alone [webmasterworld.com]

Enjoy!

Smiley

9:20 am on Feb 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



spikedo55,

You can spend months trying to get a top position for a two word key phrase when in that time you could have developed loads more content which will pick up more targeted (better) users.

With this extra content and a home page optimised using the basic rules available on webmasterworld, then over time your site will build in relevance and do better on the competitive terms.

Smiley

Tony_Perry

10:11 am on Feb 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



more quality content. lots of fine tuning and plenty of qualty inbound links.

spikedo55

4:13 pm on Feb 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Thanks everyone for responding.

I still don't get it though. For "car buying tips", I'm rated #1, but for "car buying" I'm #134. "Car buying tips" includes the key word "car buying." I don't understand why it doesn't work that way. [sigh]

Back to the drawing board...

kevinpate

4:23 pm on Feb 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Perhaps sites 1 -133 which outrank you for "car buying" don't have the word "tips" anywhere on their pages, leapiong you over and above them to the top.

Is "car buying tips" an oft entered search phrase? If it's rarely used, being number 1 isn't helpful. Maybe a different phrase should be the focus.

Yidaki

4:24 pm on Feb 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Car buying tips? [webmasterworld.com] hmmm, nice coincidence ...

SlyOldDog

4:27 pm on Feb 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Hi Spikedo

Do a search and look in the top right corner of the screen.

"car buying tips" - 624,000 Google results
"Car buying" 2,700,000 results

Therefore it is harder to rank well for "car buying". Not only that, you have more competition on the two word phrase because it would be more lucrative to be well ranked for it.

rogerd

4:30 pm on Feb 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator 10+ Year Member



Inbound link text is important, too - a "car buying tips" link will help for "car buying", but not as much as a "car buying" link.

spikedo55

5:11 pm on Feb 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Yidaki,

That's just a coincidence. I'm using "car buying" as an example. Thought that everyone could follow that one.

Sly, Kevin,

You are right. A lot fewer search on "car buying tips" than "car buying". The main attraction of my site, however, are free tips. So is my strategy flawed? Should I start changing things like the title using "car buying" instead of "car buying tips"? Perhaps I am too focused on "car buying tips".

NickCoons

6:40 pm on Feb 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



spikedo55,

I don't think changing "car buying tips" to "car buying" is going to help for searches on "car buying." The other 133 sites above yours probably have other words after "car buying" that are not adversely affecting them. Unless all of the other sites have the words "car buying" isolated somewhere.

I think you should do a search for "car buying", and then visit the sites that outrank yours to see if there's anything obivous you can note that they are doing and you are not.

spikedo55

6:52 pm on Feb 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



I have visted the top 20 and here's some things I noticed. Most of the sites have been on the net for some time; their copyright dates back to the late 90s. Many aren't even updated anymore. One big difference is that they all are on ODP and all major indexes. They probably got on when it was easier to do so. I haven't been able to get onto ODP yet (currently under consideration), but may not because I may not have enough nonaffiliate related content. None of the sites in the top 20 have an overwhelming use of the "car buying" key phrase so I'm scratching my head.

SlyOldDog

7:31 pm on Feb 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Spikedo

PageRank is probably the main factor. There's more information than you can read about it on this website, so just have a look through the history on this forum and youŽll find plenty of hints.

spikedo55

7:49 pm on Feb 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Actually, my page rank is 5 and has stayed that way. Most of the others ahead of me are less than 5. Go figure.

rogerd

8:04 pm on Feb 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator 10+ Year Member



If they are outranking you with a lower PR, then the key areas are likely to be link text and on-page content. I'd study the competition to get some clues, and then start optimizing.

EquityMind

10:36 pm on Feb 12, 2003 (gmt 0)



Spikedo55

I sent you a sticky regarding a link exchange which may help you out.

freejung

11:04 pm on Feb 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



I bet inbound link text is the problem. Have you looked at how your text links on your subpages link back to the main page? Is car buying in the anchor text? Is tips?

spikedo55

1:02 am on Feb 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



All my inbound links from other sites are "car buying tips" not "car buying". Could that be it?

kevinpate

1:44 am on Feb 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Ok, keeping with the statements that "car buying" and "car buying tips" are examples only, here's a comment I meant to make earlier and didn't.

If I'm hunting for info to purchase a "car" online, I don't know that 'tips' would enter my mind as a search term. So, I'm not overly surprised that 'tips' is not a oft used term.

I would probably not even be using "car buying". rather I'd be trying to hone in on what I wanted, e.g., make model of the specific ride for which I'm hoping to find the perfect deal. Are your 100+ competitors more keyed in on that concept than your site?

Staying with cars, I'd be searching with terms like
Dodge "ram tough" 1500 if I was looking for a truck or
"Dodge Viper" +"for Sale" [or] Buy [or] Auction if that was the car I wanted.

I wouldn't be starting with a "where can I find solid tips on buying a car" type search. Maybe that's just me.

For another example, take an area where a specific brand is not the focus so much as a spcific feature, i.e., cameras.
I'd never fire up as my front end search "Camera buying tips" or "buy camera online". Even without a brand in mind, I'd already know if I wanted film based or digital, format size if film based, and at least some idea on whether I wanted a camera that used a docking station.

Just some other thoughts. Hopefully they are helpful. if not, well, I never claimed to be an expert. I'm just in Joe Customer mode at the moment.

-

Jaze

2:01 am on Feb 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



On this note, one of our domains expired, was hijacked linked to a porn site and then we got the domain back for twice the price. In this space of time, Googlebot picked up on the site change (very quickly) and penalised the domain name.

How does one ammend such a penalty (for not keeping a close eye on domain name expiration dates)?

spikedo55

4:14 pm on Feb 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



ok, how's this for bizzare. I went and did a search this morning on "car buying" and now I'm #13 on Google, up from #134. Will tomorrow bring more bad news, back down in the 130s? I didn't think that your Google listing would fluctuate that much. Does anyone have any experiences like this?

Macguru

4:26 pm on Feb 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



If there is a fresh date at bottom of your listing, chances are it will unfortunatly drop back in a couple of days. Here is another good thread from lazerzubb :Google Update FAQ [webmasterworld.com].

spikedo55

4:50 pm on Feb 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Just checked again. Now I'm back down to #134. How can Google list you one moment so high and then drop you a minute later. I need some stability here. Very frustrating...

Mac,

That's interesting. WHen I was placing high, I was changing major pages and uploading them daily. I haven't done those in awhile so maybe that why I'm dropping. That's a lot of labor to keep a high Google rating.

freejung

10:20 pm on Feb 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Relax, spikedo55, you're just seeing the results of the everflux. :) The fresh ranking probably corresponds pretty closely to what you will see after the next update. Until then, you will probably pop in and out of your new ranking every couple of days. At least, this is what happens to me when I'm expanding to target a new keyword. This is good news, just keep building your content, freshbot will love you.

stuntdubl

10:44 pm on Feb 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



I have seen similar results to what is being mentioned.

It boggled me until this point, but now I realize it is almost certainly an issue of PR. Build those backlinks:)

BigDave

10:49 pm on Feb 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



spikedo55,

You do have a stable spot. You are #134.

Whenever you shoot up it is the result of freshbot. You should rejoice in the fact that you get that change, rather than complaining about it.

You are the equivalent of a waiter in a resort town that normally comes home with minimum wage. But occasionally a high roller comes through and leaves a couple of hundred dollar tip.

SlyOldDog

9:24 pm on Feb 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



That's rather condescending wouldn't you say, Dave?

BigDave

10:01 pm on Feb 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Sorry, I don't understand why it's condescending? It's the truth.

He says he wants it to be stable. But what he really means is that he wants it to be stable at #13. He is stable at #134. That is where he is in the update and it is the number he needs to work on improving.

When he gets the everflux bonus to move him up to #13, he should be happy about that and be grateful that it happens, otherwise he would be #134 all month long. And I really don't think that is what he meant when he said that he wanted stability.

SlyOldDog

10:35 pm on Feb 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



I'm not so sure about your stability theory.

Normally when we've been pushed to the top by freshbot after adding new content we would either stay there, or within a few spots of the freshbot position after the following update. I'm sure Google is striving to make those fresh positions as close to "the truth" as possible.

Let us know where you land after the update Spike.

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