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One of these sites is a guide to the destination and it's position in the SERPS was totally unaffected by Florida. - It would seem that this is an 'authority' site.
Another site is totally commercial and for the sake of argument lets call the destination 'blue' and the product that I am selling 'widgets'.
My site (the domain name) is bluewidgets.com.
When the -hgdfhge search was working, my site was number 1 for the 'blue widgets -hgdfhge' search but 500+ for 'blue widgets'.
The thing that gets me annoyed is the current #2 serp for 'blue widget' is a page on a review site that only links to me! I have at least 5 pages in the top 100 for this term - that are much less relevant to anyone searching for Blue Widgets than the bluewidgets.com website.
If Google have penalised commercial sites in the main SERPS in order to promote Froogle, where does this leave Travel-related sites who cannot list their products in Froogle?
Any opinions from others in the Travel market?
>>>>> Maybe it will be as simple as adjacent search boxes for "I want information on: " and "I want to spend money on:
This would be an interesting split, is it not froogle? And if I want information on a city, am I not a prime buyer for a hotel?
imho The affiliate system to too stongly tied into the web now for it to go away. Even if Google dropped all pages with affiliate links, other deals would be struck with the dig affiliates. It is how the world works these days :)
Affiliates are here to stay for a while yet.
>>>>> Maybe it will be as simple as adjacent search boxes for "I want information on: " and "I want to spend money on:This would be an interesting split, is it not froogle?
Froogle is only for merchants, not for affiliates, and--unless things have changed lately--it's only for merchandise, not services like travel. Still, others have speculated that there could be a travel equivalent in the works. Let's just hope they don't call it "Troogle." :-)
And if I want information on a city, am I not a prime buyer for a hotel?
Quite possibly, but that doesn't mean search results for "ExampleCity" should list a hotel booking site higher than the ExampleCity city government or the ExampleCity tourist office.
imho The affiliate system to too stongly tied into the web now for it to go away. Even if Google dropped all pages with affiliate links, other deals would be struck with the dig affiliates. It is how the world works these days :)
Sure, but "deals" (which could be as simple as AdWord sales) aren't the same as free listings at the top of SERPs. Especially after the IPO, Google may be reluctant to offer the equivalent of Yellow Pages ads for free when it can keep the beancounters happy without compromising its stated corporate mission.
[edited by: DaveAtIFG at 5:56 pm (utc) on Jan. 12, 2004]
On the other hand, in Europe (and other continents?) location, facilities and character are all aspects of a hotel that users will often want to know before booking, especially but not only in non-city resort destinations.
One of the most apparent side-effects of Florida in European travel-related SERPs was the massacre of individual hotel sites for a $location hotel query and replacement by webcam directories, conference sites, and affiliate and non-affiliate directories with the same limited listings.
Hotels with a decently-created site have noticed no change or an upswing in traffic (which for me supports the argument that searchers are "evading" the affected term because they are not finding what they want). Hotels which virtually only ranked for that specific phrase (because they used frames or a Flash navigation, for example) are possibly wondering why their internet queries have declined so suddenly.
Whether or not this is "good for the searcher" as Google defines it is a matter for them to decide. But it behoves us all to remember that despite its frantic redirection to a multitude of country-specific domain names, Google is at heart an American search engine.
Maybe in another 50 to 100 years, but for now please be realistic.
I think Trawler's experiment shows it can be done today. If browsing stats are made available for users we know from historical data what people most likely meant (or didn't mean) when they typed a search query.
Google is only 4 years old. Why do you think it will take 50 more?
They want it, so they took it and left the crumbs for the rest of us.
Do you mean that Google wanted these "money phrases" in the sense that they would force sites to use Adwords for example so generating them more revenue?
In my area for sure (travel) it seems that a lot of good sites have been dropped and simply replaced by some equally good sites but also with plenty of crap, certainly a lot more than was there pre Florida.
So I see post the Florida update is different sites benefiting from the "money phrases" and the end user possibly having to search a little harder and Google getting some increased revenue.
What I can't come to terms with is the fact that some posts have suggested that Google want these "money phrases" for themselves mainly, the problem I have with that is that there will always be sites at the top of the SERPs for "money phrases" and they will get the orders/money.
Sites which ranked well pre Florida and not post Florida will possibly take up Adwords but at the same time maybe those who ranked badly pre Florida and well post Florida will stop using Adwords.
I will agree with that 100%
In MHO there is just no way the majors are going to let "an outsider", Google, dictate to them the basis of their own industry.
The majors are forever tied to the affiliates, whether they or google, like it or not.
If just one of the majors run an affiliate program they all have to do it. If google locks out the affiliates, most likeley their (googles)competitors will let them in.
If they all (the SE) lock out the affiliates, look for the travel majors to get together and get into the travel search business pronto.
Google is a very small player (corporate wise)in this market (when you compare it to the combined might of the travel majors) and could be relagated to the heap pile in short order if the majors came forward with a travel only search engine.
The same would apply to the other major industries on the net. Real estate would be a prime area for someone wanting to get into the search business. With the crap google is now serving there, even a second rate job would probable make it.
The real estate majors could buy out google from petty cash, and never even feel it. Of course if google is not for sale, it would take longer to move them out of that market.
If past history leads to future endeavors look for Bill Gates to come on strong in both of these areas. (travel- real estate).
That could be good, but maybe not - time will tell
Travel business is a dynamic area and an imperative for a good travel website is that it ought to be updated and perfected in the course of time.
What startles me is that the better searches tend to be dominated by old pages which often conceal themselves as "official pages" - they have a lot of content, good position, but are meant especially as a gateway through which customes treated to some info are sent to the more important pages.
My site was punished probably for over-optimization and was replaced in several cases by subpages of larger chains which show much bigger keyword density than my pages and provide less content (we got from 1st page to 200 and got recently back to 40s - 50s for my search terms).
Google probably goes at its pace to do something with it, but hopefully they will have in mind that even those who specialize in niche terms may be hit. Google staff's affirmations that a good page must do well if they behave well are still not convincing.
SOLUTIONS?: Expert rating for tourism? DMOZ does not work flexibly and sometimes can allow for corruption. Pages listed in DMOZ do well and existence of one editor (who can even be personalized after some search) is dangerous and may prove inefficient.
Affiliations, backward links leading to the better "authoritative sites"? :)))) There is too much supply of tourism offers on-line and there is too little altruism which would discern the best pages :))) Sure, backward links do not make a site better, more informed and user-friendly and it is good Google wants web people to focus on other aspects. But to start to punish web sites for backward links (and over-optimization) was a stab in the back, because there was no new solution how to define the authoritative site.
On the other hand I do not believe that Google support the best advertisers. Newcomers will always have to pay because the profitable searches have created competition which cannot be cracked solely with a nice page with a lot of content and a site map.
In MHO there is just no way the majors are going to let "an outsider", Google, dictate to them the basis of their own industry.The majors are forever tied to the affiliates, whether they or google, like it or not.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that Google intends to put affiliate vendors out of business. But that doesn't mean Google has to let those vendors' affiliates dominate (or even do well) in its free search listings. Google doesn't even have to do anything drastic like bump affiliate pages from its free listings: It can simply tweak its algorithm so that commercial pages (including affiliate pages) don't dominate the top 20 or 30 places for searches that aren't explicitly commercial. Or it can split off its commercial search results, put merchandise listings in Froogle and commercial travel listings in a "Troogle," and charge for data feeds (or possibly even for inclusion) in those special-purpose indexes.
Who knows? Maybe the big travel vendors would welcome such a change, because it would weaken the bargaining power of their affiliates. Hotels.com, for example, already advertises directly to consumers on TV. Who's to say that it wouldn't be better off spending more money on PPC listings and other advertising than on affiliate commissions? It could still have affiliates, but affiliates would be less critical to its success and the shift of money from affiliate commissions to advertising would help to promote its own brand.
You're right in saying that the travel market is important, and that it's a lot bigger than Google. So why should Google provide a distribution infrastructure for travel vendors without feeling that it deserves a bigger piece of the pie? If it can improve the quality of its search results (as defined by Google, not by affiliates) and make more money in the process, isn't it likely to do so? Especially after it becomes a public corporation that's answerable to shareholders?
Good post, a lot of very valid points, and I do hope things go that way. But.
When an affiliate site, for whatever reason (other than blatant Spam) ranked well prior to Florida, how is it now that many are pushed below 500 for the money terms. For non money terms they are still highly visible.
I mean if the site ranked # 4 before Florida, it just doesn't add up that they can't rank in the top 500 now, when many of the 500 sites above them are almost meaningless.
It's either "punishment" or a deliberate attempt to keep them out of the meaningful serps. It has to be one or the other.
As far as over optimization penalty goes, I don't believe that is really an issue in and by itself. In other words, I do not believe one is pushed down in the serps for that reason alone. Why? For non-money terms, (and a few money terms) there are lots of highly optimized sites obtaining # 1 rankings. I have a many many # 1 placements and I can assure you the pages are ALL HIGHLY OPTIMIZED - to the hilt.
It really comes down to the money terms.
Is there anyone here in the travel arena ( who ran an affiliate site and had a top five position prior to Florida for a two keyword money search) and who was hit hard by Florida and has since recovered? (a like position)
I have not heard of anyone on this board or on other boards. Not for the real money terms.
<<Maybe in another 50 to 100 years, but for now please be realistic.<<
No man, he's serious, it's coming in the next version of the ToolBar. The darn thing is going to bounce an infrared signal off of your skull and spider your brainwaves.
In the future, humans will be assigned a PageRank, and getting PRzero'd will have serious social consequences...
In the future, humans will be assigned a PageRank, and getting PRzero'd will have serious social consequences...
On the other hand, if you aren't into small talk, you can always send the cached version of yourself to cocktail parties. :-)
I would think that it would be pretty easy to tell if a website was actually doing this, even for a spider. Any thoughts?
Froogle is only for merchants, not for affiliates,
The services Issue has never been tacked by the s/e has it? Plumbers and Dentists can at least get on Yellow Pages, but anyone with a "contact us" form on a site has a service to offer. (Even as a merchant, I might wholesale some products).
a travel only search engine.
Has anyone noticed a difference between travel and destination websites that do and don't offer online reservations and booking (purchasing online)?
No.
As a small aside, if I am looking for a cottage (this weekends search for the summer) I know what I want, and tend to look for the owner websites. If I come across a www.wedoloadsofcottages.co.uk I tend to skip them, and phone later (sale is missed for them this year, as I have bought now).
This is simply because I nearly always find the search function inadequate.
Great thread, thanks all.
1. Hotel chains stepping up there own marketing to cut out the affilate
i.e. placing cheaper deals on there own sites (You can't compete with that)
2. Google designs a filter to knock out duplicate content.
This I see as the biggest threat at present. What would happen if G removed all the sites that use the same information from the GDS system and similar.
3. Copyright is something I feel might come into play at some point. (I think us affiliate might be targeted by big hotel chains.)
4. How long is it before Expedia and Tripadvisor style companies take over the market place?
If you can check prices on all the different hotel systems in one go. Your site is going to be a waste of time. With your one link to travelnow ect..
I think there are hard times ahead!
This I see as the biggest threat at present. What would happen if G removed all the sites that use the same information from the GDS system and similar.
Google doesn't have to remove duplicate content--all Google has to do is give less weight to duplicate content, so that pages using boilerplate text drop lower on the SERPs. The result would be an immediate reduction in perceived "search clutter" and cleaner results from both Google's and the user's point of view.
3. Copyright is something I feel might come into play at some point. (I think us affiliate might be targeted by big hotel chains.)
How so? I don't see why this would be an issue unless affiliates were grabbing text and images off the hotels' own sites without permission. If affiliates are using material supplied by the affiliate vendors or from a PR image bank like Leonardo.com, there shouldn't be any problem at all.
4. How long is it before Expedia and Tripadvisor style companies take over the market place?
That's as a big concern for the hotel chains as it is for affiliates (in fact, you touched on this in your post). It's probably more of a concern in the U.S. market (where people may book by chain rather than by individual hotel) than it is in Europe (where fewer hotels belong to chains and even chain hotels are often older, distinctive properties). For the leisure traveler especially, a hotel in Paris or London or Rome is more likely to be selected for its atmosphere and individual reputation than might be the case in Tulsa or the Chicago suburbs near O'Hare.
If you can check prices on all the different hotel systems in one go. Your site is going to be a waste of time. With your one link to travelnow ect..
Not all travelers are just seeking the cheapest room for the night. Affiliate sites that do nothing more than dish up boilerplate results and search forms may face a gloomy future over the long term, but those that add value should be able to succeed in profitable niches. Also, not every traveler is interested in buying a full package of air tickets, hotels, car rental, etc. from Expedia or Travelocity. Many people like to cherry-pick from different sources. (That's one of the things that many travel agents find frustrating--people come to them for low-profit air tickets, then make other arrangements on their own.)
IMHO, an affiliate site's motto should be "Add value for the user." That's likely to be the key to survival and success for Website owners who derive income from affiliate sales.
As for the copyright issue, I know of a big-ish hotel chain that is asking there partners to remove there logos and rename urls if any part of the hotel name is in the url.
In that case it was in the subdomain. I guess because there offical site that cost them thousands was getting stuffed in the serps.
Just a taste of thing to come and not just in the travel industry. IMHO ;)
