How does Google react to H1's Modified by CSS?

[allanp73]

I know it was popular to use CSS style sheets to define an H1 tag with small text, so as to get the boost from Google while maintaining the asthetics of the site.
I heard about this over two years ago and I figure that if Google hasn't caught on yet, it soon will. Several months ago one of my clients asked me about doing this and I told them don't do it because I felt it was spammy. Today, I found out they ignored my advice. So my question is how does Google treat this situation?
Does it only rely on spam reports to detect this or does it have the ability to check it with its crawlers?

I want some feedback so as to convince them to remove this code before they launch their site. Please help me to build a case against it :)

[JayC]

There you have 3 legitimate uses for CSS hiding and I can think of more.

But in any of the three cases, there'd be no reason for a search engine not to ignore the invisible content -- or no loss of relevancy in the serps if it were ignored.

[NGene]

What the heck is wrong with you people?! You're all paranoid... Google is bad for you!

To me, it is a worse offence to use a H2 or H3 instead of a H1 simply because it looks better (smaller), than using CSS to reduce the default font size and margins/padding of a H1.

EXACTLY. That's what CSS was made for - so you can use H1 freely when appropriate. CSS was made so you don't have to use H2 or H3 just because the text is smaller.

Now I have an idea: because you're all so paranoid, let's just get rid of ALL H tags. Let's just forget the semantics of a web page and substitute H tags with P and FONT tags... excellent idea, isn't it?!

So how do you know if your CSS modifications are spammy or not? I have an idea. Display your web page without a style sheet. If the document, its structure, and its headings and sub-headings make sense and look logical, you don't have a problem.

If you use the H tags for what they were made for, I don't think you have a problem if you modify their look and size to fit your site.

Again... you're all paranoid! :)

By the way, I use heavily modified H1, H2 and H3 headings on my website, and I haven't got a penalty yet. Do you know why I use those H tags in the first place? I use them so that my page would make sense in text browsers. Call me naive, but I don't think Google would penalize me for making my site viewable for all visitors...

[le_gber]

There you have 3 legitimate uses for CSS hiding and I can think of more

I agree with Jay C, you won't suffer if those div aren't pick up by SE, would you?

I'm using a hidden div to contain the full size pictures.

Then again no harm if not picked up by SE.

I'm not saying that everybody who uses hidden div want to spam SE, I'm just saying that if it's not visible by HUMAN without having to interact with the page, it's not worth being picked up.

leo

[Made In Sheffield]

> I agree with Jay C, you won't suffer if those div aren't pick up by SE, would you?

In my case no, but again you have to be open minded, what if someone has a page that has multiple divs and uses Javascript to hide some of them based on a user preference?

A news site could display longer versions of articles to users who want more information for example.

Just because the examples given don't suffer doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of legitimate situations where content that should be indexed is would get missed by simply ignoring all hidden elements.

Cheers,
Nigel

[le_gber]

A news site could display longer versions of articles to users who want more information for example.

I understand but in that case why not using ASP or PHP or any other server side scripting language to dynamically create the page and not hide anything on the client side? It's much simpler and more straightforward than using Javascript to hide layer, it's browser independant, more robust and pages are 'lighter'.

The thing is a lot of people use hidden layers to boost the PR (in the case I spoke about earlier the company uses 2000+ keywords of size 1 px, 140+ keywords with links in H4 tags, and some keywords with links in h1 tags ... everything being hidden), so it would be best to ignore the content of these div for ranking, or put some kind of 0 point boost.

leo

[Made In Sheffield]

People should be free to use the standards in any way they please, without being penalised by search engines. Things like this can only be checked by human review.

If it's spam fine, but there are many cases where it won't be.

What about a personal site of someone who doesnt have the knowledge or access to PHP etc?

Cheers,
Nigel

[buckworks]

<<The first is used to hide my company address when on screen so that it is available if someone prints the page. The print style sheet activates it. >>

Just a note to say thanks for this absolute gem of an idea! :)

[le_gber]

Ok I see your point, but stay convinced that the influence of the content of hidden div must be minimized.

What about a personal site of someone who doesnt have the knowledge or access to PHP etc?

I don't think that it's these people that will risk stuffing hidden div to boost their PR and spam SE ;)

[brotherhood of LAN]

What about a personal site of someone who doesnt have the knowledge or access to PHP etc?

I think that's why webgeurilla hints towards the fact "real spammers" don't use CSS or any of this tittle-tattle trickery.

just use vanilla template html, by the bucketload, and throw those bucketloads at the googlebot....nil points for style ;)

Easy for a pro to look like a beginner.

[le_gber]

"real spammers" don't use CSS or any of this tittle-tattle trickery

so 2500+ keywords with h4, h1 and links in a hidden div on a page is not 'real spamming'?

Damn if I had known that before, it would have saved me some time while building what I think is 'not so bad content' ;)

[brotherhood of LAN]

so 2500+ keywords with h4, h1 and links in a hidden div on a page is not real spamming?

Just sounds like a half baked idea, IMO.

Remember Google is a worldwide search engine, 40PhD's and all, I can't see half baked ideas lasting the 4 minute mile ;)

Maybe one of those "throwaway" tactics that some other spammers use.

Quality wins out in the end.

[le_gber]

I can't see half baked ideas lasting the 4 minute mile

I wish you were right, they ranked in the top 5 for a while now and for a lot of these keywords and unfortunatly compete in the same discipline as me :( (...like a lot of us: website design/development!)

sorry what does IMO means

[brotherhood of LAN]

IMO => in my opinion

and is all it is, I cant confirm or deny what Isay, I think, IMO what I said was just common sense.

2500 hidden words = about 15K of garbage.....yeah sure they could be ranking high, but its not very discrete, one nice little spam report could sort that out.

[le_gber]

one nice little spam report could sort that out

Yep, might wait until next update to see if my new SEO beats them up ;) Any way not even sure to report them,
I WANT TO MAKE THEM FEEL THAT CHEATING ISN'T THE SOLUTION BY BEATING THEM FAIR AND SQUARE ;)

[brotherhood of LAN]

hehe,

I get your point, but all the same, it's a rat race, if you don't report him, the guy below you will. I wonder how much of that palaver goes on. The amount of ratting must be immense. ;)

I used the "s" word there too, but I'm sure you get my point. CSS isnt allowing this guy to rank higher......and you can plainly see what he's doing and his motives are. Bust him :)

//added
i think im drifting off-topic now, I'll sit back n observe :)

[le_gber]

i think im drifting off-topic now, I'll sit back n observe :)

You're right let's launch a new topic and see if it's successful ;)