Do you have to cheat to compete?

[c1bernaught]

I know, you've heard all the bellyaching about spammers that you can handle. Google seems to turn a blind eye. So, the question I have is simple.

Do you have to cheat to compete?

Here's my case:

My site was doing well and was climbing slowly up through the serps. So, last month I find myself bumped down a couple positions. I look at at the other 9 sites on the first page and see that they are all the same site utilizing an iframe with a keyword filled, zero content page, that is never seen by the end user. The site just pops the affiliate page up. Ok, not a big deal, I figure the google algo will catch and penalize this guy. Well freinds, I guess it don't work that way because this month the owner spawned a couple more sites that do exactly the same thing. So now the top 20 sites listed are all the same affiliate pop up! Pretty cool right. So much for spam filters!

So, I can't compete anymore, and the guy who owns these sites is just encourged by his successes.

So, I ask you again, do you have to cheat to compete?

[chiyo]

Seems a prefect candidate for a spam report to Google. GG is pretty hot on these right now.

[Ceo_Seo]

What are the other site URLS

[c1bernaught]

I can't post them here. I can "sticky" you, if you like.

I really believe that there are a lot of webmasters asking the hard question of whether or not cheating is the only way to succeed at this game.

[fathom]

First if there is serious spam in your theme area send a spam report and forget about them. Each new report that comes in, if warranted a special invite to them to go elsewhere else will occur - if not that bad but adds to common spam consideration this type of tactic is added to algo and googlebot learns how to detect this sort of thing.

It will not happen overnight - so as I said submit and forget.

Each month WebmasterWorld receives a few newbies who read, ask, and applied the sum of learned knowledge and many report back within a few months... 2k plus visitors per day. Not too bad for beginners.

Generally though no cheating is needed, just a dozen hours of dedicated reading, a couple of specific questions and off to the races, adding -- principles involving good design and sound marketing that revolve around "the benefits to the visitor" can hands down beat real spam any day.

Two recent thread that will help appreciate accepted practices. If there are parts you don't understand -- do a site search on the term and if the results do not help make it perfectly clear, ask? ;)

Stuck on the 2nd page [webmasterworld.com]

inbound links to which page? [webmasterworld.com]

Note: New site posted February 4th using these steps, ranked #1 on primary keyphrase and 30+ secondary keyphrases on 1st page (depth 10) during recent update.

They do work exceptional well -- but you do need develop knowledge & skills to appreciate how to use the information.

fathom

[c1bernaught]

Fathom,

Thanks for the advice. I try very hard to follow the guidelines, but find it difficult to compete with those who cheat. Each month it seems a new "spammer" finds a way to get ahead of me. I've been at this game for a couple years now and have managed to do pretty well. I have some understanding of how to build a clean website and get it ranked. The issue I have revolves around the frustration of going from "hero to zero" because some other guy decides, and figures, a way to "beat the system". If I get there in 6 month's playing by the rules, and another can do it in 2 by cheating, that's an issue, especially if they can stay there for several month's (years?).

[c1bernaught]

Ok, I took the high road. Let's see how it pans out.

I do believe that there are many webmasters out there who are faced with the question of whether to cheat or not, just to keep up with those that do.

It seems to me that spammers who succeed, simply breed more spammers. That's a problem that grows exponentially.

[mbennie]

For every search that there is a spammer taking the top spots there are 20 searches that spammers don't show in the top 10.

Our sites all do well, many with #1 rankings for highly competetive search terms (1mm+ results). No spam tactics, just hard work and a little ingenuity.

Stick with the basics and follow the rules. You'll be around for the long term.

[Ceo_Seo]

I just met the team from Google at the SE conference in Boston and have the e-mail to the Offical ethics (spammer controller) at Google. I am not the kind of person to start submitting sites for spam, I believe the people who use unethical SEO will eventually get caught without me blowing the whistle. Now if its a hate site or porn site I would immediately contact Google. You can also e-mail [e-mail]. Good Luck guys!

[The Subtle Knife]

Stick with the basics and follow the rules. You'll be around for the long term.

we know this and most people post the same thing.

Build good common sense sites, and a year later you'll do OK.
That's fine.
What I've always said, why can't you have both strategies.
The answer is you can, you can build for the long term,
and have short term solutions to get up there.
Long term stuff is easy. short term isn't.
YOU CAN DO BOTH.

So now the top 20 sites listed are all the same affiliate pop up! Pretty cool right. So much for spam filters!

So, I can't compete anymore, and the guy who owns these sites is just encourged by his successes.

See my post on a thread called "Search Engine Ranking Wars".
You need to fight.

So, I ask you again, do you have to cheat to compete?

I have more radical viewpoints to google that a lot of people here,
but I would say yes.

Just cheat in an ethical way, of course.

It seems to me that spammers who succeed, simply breed more spammers. That's a problem that grows exponentially.

And the google algo, produces worse and worse results.

I completely appreciate what c1bernaught is saying, most
people here won't.

[Thanasus]

I am focused on a moderately competitive term (1.5 million sites in resultset). The top dogs were doing some pretty blatant mischief (doorways, link farms, hidden text). I then checked out some other stuff and found one of them cloaking.

I sent in spam reports to Google, clearly noting everything. It took about 3 months but they are all gone now. Two of them apparently have changed their websites to now be ethical, so I look forward to a good, clean, fight with them.

Point is that is simply takes persistance. Submit the reports and while you are waiting develop quality content and inbound links.

I was in your dilemma quite some time ago. I almost chose to walk down the darkside but am glad I didn't. What do you know, cheaters don't win when it comes to Google.

[c1bernaught]

I'm all for doing what's right and sticking to the rules. My problem is simply that it seems, at least for my theme, I am one of the few.

In my theme, sites that do redirects are "normal" to see in the top 10 or 20 listings. I thought that was spam. Unfortunately it never goes away.

I sent in a spam report and used GG, Webmaster World and my nickname in the report. I'm hoping that this will end, at least for the worst spammer, his ability to dominate the serps.

Now, as far as cheating to succeed goes, hear me out.

I believe that there are many webmasters who follow the dark path (I know, sounds dramatic right!). They know that they can bring a site into the index, into top 10 positions and maybe keep it there for a few month's. They know the payoff will be a substantial amount of traffic, and profit, before they get busted, If they get busted. For them it is a get rich quick scheme, right?

This substantially hurts those of us who are really trying hard to build something for our future as this isn't a one time event but rather an ongoing battle.

Maybe in the truly competitive area's spammer like this aren't as prevelent. Maybe there are too many watchers there. I know that in the backwaters of the Google virtual megaplex there is a lot of this going on. How do I know? I live it everyday.