Forum Moderators: phranque
1) You have only VB talent - go for ASP
2) You know Perl like the back of your hand - go Perl
3) You need to integrate your web app with some Java app - go JSP
4) You need to inflate the bill ;) - go Coldfusion
Ducks for cover.
.. but here is one link I would like to post .. its about why YAHOO chose php for some of its stuff over rest of the technologies
[public.yahoo.com...]
They seem to have considered all the factors very thoroughly.
I am not sure if this link is fairly general to be considered admissible here.. moderators please correct that if needed.
Thanks.
IMHO, you can't add the cost of OS to it.
Do you think he might drop the price and pay us to use ASP?
dingman,
If your Windows OS does not come with IIS. Check out PersonalWebServer(PWS) from Microsoft. It is free, and will run ASP code, just like IIS.
1) PHP
2) JSP (Java)
3) Coldfusion
4) ASP
5) Cgi/Perl
These ratings are based on various parameters like cost, ease of learning, scalability, security and how long it will remain good before it becomes obselete. Ofcourse there will be people whose ratings will vary depending on what parameters are more important to them. So YMMV :)
And one more parameter is how difficult it is to sell it to a dumb (non techi) boss ;) . Three of these have big names behind them ... JSP (SUN) , Coldfusion (Macromedia), ASP (Microsoft) .. so bosses tend to be comfortable. But PHP and CGI are free so some times that advantage could infact be THE disadvantage. My ratings are from an independent webmaster's perspective.
1) PHP
a) Cost = 0
b) Ease of learning - Easy
c) Scalability - V.Good
d) Security - V.Good
e) Future Proof - For foreseeable future.
2) JSP
a) Cost = 0 (if you use Tomcat)
b) Ease of learning - V.Difficult (Need to know Java)
c) Scalability - Excellent
d) Security - V.Good
e) Future Proof - For Foreseeable future.
3) Coldfusion ( Have not used this much, still I will try give my best opinion)
a) Cost - High
b) Ease of learning - V.Easy
c) Scalabilty - Poor (IMO)
d) Security - Not sure, I think its ok..
e) Future Proof - I do not think its use will grow much.
4) ASP
a) Cost - Not free (IIS, chillisoft cost money)
b) Ease of learning - V.Easy
c) Scalabilty - Poor (because VB & VBscript do not scale well)
d) Security - Poor
e) Future - ASP.NET, the new avtar of ASP is touted to be the next big thing in web server programming.. only time will tell..but I do not think its any thing that great.
5) CGI/Perl
a) Cost = 0
b) Ease of learning - Difficult
c) Scalability - Average
d) Security - Average
e) Future - Not bright.
Basic 2.0, ye early days.
65xx and 65816 assembler (a decade of of ml).
Scripting languages (dos, bbs langs, db scripting, spreadsheet scripting).
Cobol, yep - did lots of report generation for a company.
C/C++, toyed around in the 80's with it, but after all the assembler it is a 2nd rate language.
Perl, 6 years now.
TK - spent alot of time learning PTK last winter. Almost a waste of time.
PHP - spent quite a bit of time learning it, but after Perl I didn't care for it. Some things were nicer, but over all I found Perl much easier to work with.
VB - just starting. Just to do some gui stuff for clients.
On the coffee table waiting to be read: 80x86 Machine Language Programming.
---
PHP is good, but it's chained to the server. Perl you can run on the desktop stand alone. A highly valuable advantage. The code is also stand alone, where PHP has to be wrapped in HTML (embedded langs tend to be more work to maintain over the long haul).
Despite reports to the contrary above, there are many big corps running Perl. There are two search engines using Perl extensively for many things behind the scenes (remember when we found the Anzwers scripts? ;-) Even Google techs admit to slapping stuff together in Perl for specific tasks. That's the perk of perl - code development speed. I've not seen anything that can compare to Perl for the speed you can develop programs.
I've been doing more and more custom perl coding over the last year and many of those clients have been fairly large corporations.
As for the alternatives, I wouldn't bank on Cold Fusion to be around forever. Macromedia could close up shop next week for all we know. The once big buzz about CF is not even a hum any more. I think there are fewer CF programs being written today than there was just six months ago - the language is in decline and I wouldn't trust MM to continue to support it in the future.
Java is also in big decline. No one wants to use it now since MS obfuscated it.
If I had to do it all again, I'd skip 65xx ml and go with 80x86 ml instead.
And if I was going to do it all again, I wouldn't change a single thing -- C++ is a good basis, and is the latin of programming languages. Is it hard? Yes. But then you will have a good base for other languagues, and will pick useful techniques that you wouldn't learn elsewhere.
Yes its hard. But to be honest, people in IT are paid for doing stuff that other people thing is hard, and often it is.
If you want to burger flip, apply to MacD's.
I think M$ has really come up with a decent engine.
I havent read many people on here speaking of C#. I am new to the C/C++/C# world, but from what I can tell, C# is a very refined version of C++.
What does this crowd think of ASP.NET and C#/VB.Net?
Their class library is considerablly huge, and it seems to provide all the functionality of many other langs in one.
Seems really fast also.
One thing i have found is the pricing for CF enabled webspace can be more than that for ASP which for some could be a deciding factor.
At the end of the day they can produce the same results so stick with what you like best!
5) CGI/Perl
a) Cost = 0
b) Ease of learning - Difficult
c) Scalability - Average
d) Security - Average
e) Future - Not bright.
The same goes for CGI/PHP, CGI/C++, CGI/Modula, in fact CGI/anything.
I find it quite strange that Perl is always associated with CGI just because traditionally Perl scripts used the Common Gateway Interface.
I agree about Scalability, Security, and Future of the CGI. But those bad ratings in no case apply to Perl as a language. As pointed out by Brett coding in perl is rather fast. I found perl to be very easy to learn. Its syntax is very intuitive.
You just canīt compare a CGI/Perl solution to a server_module/PHP solution.
Andreas
(ducks out of the way of the flying rotten tomatoes)
Actually, I started programming in ASP because I was a visual basic programmer. If you know one, then you know the other. And from there it is a quick leap to java (not to mention all the 'script' langs)
I have had people diss me for my ASP use, however I like it. It programs clean, executes fast enough for my taste, no real complaints.
I have recently started using ASP.NET and must say it is a major step forward, both in the time saving features for developers such as VIEWSTATE and also in it's power.
The other advantage is that it uses VB.NET which is a more powerful than VB and also can be used to write standard windows applications and web services.
I have just passed the Developing Web Applications with VB.NET exam and in doing so reckon I am pretty well set up for the next 4 years at least, now am going to learn about web services.
Although I shall be adding to old sites with new ASP code all new sites I am doing are being built in ASP.NET, it really does make coding easier.
The other major advantage of ASP.NET is that is truly seperates your html from your code meaning application logic and interface elements are seperated and can be worked upon independently.
Knew nothing about web, got a job doing web. Learned HTML, js and started working with perl and mysql(easy transition from oracle). Got a new job and my Dad introduced me to php (he rubs that in my face all the time). It was a match. Was just like writing c/c++, which I loved. The major disadvantage with php is as Brett said
>>Perl you can run on the desktop stand alone
Aside from that I haven't run into a single thing that I can't do. It was so simple to learn and, for web work, meshes so well with all of the other aspects of web work.
I have worked with asp but it has always felt clunky and slapdash and leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I am very familiar with VB even though I am getting rustier and it still wasn't the easiest transition so I stay away from it whenever possible. I think mainly it comes down to what is the most comfortable and makes the most sense for you.
The same goes for CGI/PHP, CGI/C++, CGI/Modula, in fact CGI/anything.I find it quite strange that Perl is always associated with CGI just because traditionally Perl scripts used the Common Gateway Interface.
That is absolutely right .. I meant CGI only and should have written only "CGI" . Just because I always used perl for CGI programming .. the finger slipped :)
Perl as such is a fantastic tool.
Current Linux distribution are quite easy to install and you should get all the software you need. The basic LAMP set-up shouldn't be a problem either and you should be ready to start programming PHP in no time.
There are lots of free PHP examples and FAQs available. Moreover, you can use Perl (DBI, DBD::mysql modules) to access MySQL, too. I'd start with PHP, though. It's simple, straight-forward, well documented, easy to learn, yet powerful!
Linux, Apache, MySQL and PHP/Perl: it's a dream team. :)
- why?
In the time ColdFusion has been around, IMO it has made
great progress. It may not be as robust or scalable as
other languages, but it really hasn't been around that long
when compared to the other languages.
With enough customer support, I am sure that macromedia will
invest enough money to make it match and maybe even surpass
the other languages. The speed in which the internet
industry is moving, that may be sooner then we think.
but dats onlee wat i tink !
If budget is a serious issue (ie. you have more time than money) go with a LAMP (Linux, Apacha, MySQL, PHP) setup. It'll cover 99% of your needs, it's all free and its all pretty well supported. I have also played with MySQL & PHP on WIN2K and that goes pretty well too.
CF does cost, but to my mind this is out weighed by the benefits the language offers. I find CF quicker to plan, write & debug so if you look at it from the point of view $$ per programming hour, it'll pay for itself over time, how much time depends on you. Do your own math and work out whether its worth it.
In addition CF has seen a big shift in the past year or so, basically it has been completely rewritten in Java and runs on a limited version of JRUN (MM's J2EE server). This makes it able to natively integrate with the whole Java world. See [www-3.ibm.com...] for how it can run on WebSphere. Maybe there is no need for J2EE at the moment but its handy to know that it can be integrated if required.
Also the new version has native XML & web service support. It also ties into flash tighter than any of the existing apps. Maybe none of that is important to a particular situation, but its probably worth noting.
Anyway my first choice is CF followed by LAMP, but its all really like what brand of car you drive, they will all get you from A -> B, its a matter of what suits specific needs the best. You'll hear 101 very good arguements for language X over language Y. Look at YOUR needs and see what looks best for those.
