Forum Moderators: buckworks
The reason I'm questioning my reasoning now is because I just received an order from France for $200 (1 item), and I just want to be sure it's not fraudelant. (Most my other items are $40-$50 so not real big of a deal if I lose one. Larger items different story.)
The buyer is verified. However, Paypal doesn't confirm addresses in France, so I can't confirm the address.
I wouldn't worry it normally, but the customer just asked me to declare a lower amount on the customs form for taxes.So now I am questioning the order.
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
I say over 50% of international customers ask to have customs value lower than sale price - they want to pay less in customs/import duties. I don't see this as a red flag. I do ask to pay for Global Express EMS if the item is above a certain value so the product can be tracked and insured.
13 NOV - 31 Dec
200 Transactions
one chargeback due to non receipt - Fraud I have proof this item was sent - refund given goodbye $132
Three attempted chargebacks due to non receipt- complaint thrown out by paypal due to transaction being over 30 days old. Total $180
One chargeback in consideration - Non receipt have proof of posting $132 - awaiting outcome
Considering we took around $6500 on paypal over that period im quite happy. Does this look ok to others?
I think it depends on what you sell. Any industry that has high customer return or fraudulent charges will be more risky. In October 2003, Paypal completely updated their "Acceptable Use Policy", to disallow the sending or receiving "payments for any "adult" or "sexually oriented" materials or services." (https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/use/index_frame&ed=mature)
We have 3500+ transactions through Paypal and only one fraudulent order causing chargeback.
I sold a website with hosting to a guy, switched the domain over to him and now he told Paypal he doesn't like what he got and wants his money back and it looks like since it is an "intangible" that they are givng him back his money. He is not even disputing that he got it. He just said after he got it he didn't like it and since it is an intangible item he gets a refund? NO from now on I use western union. Paypal is helping him commit fraud.
Yes the item was sent via a tracking system, couldnt lay my hands on the papers this morning to prove he had received. I suspect he has.
Its several copys of Ghettopoly so I suspect he resold them and shafted me. Nice.
I have one other attempting to do the same, So im looking at a $300 out of pocket expense. The thing that really sucks is that I was selling them at 20% BELOW retail offering customers a good deal anyway.
I suspect theres there chuff all I can do, just sit back and think of England.
Which is odder still becaus I only insured around 8 out of 200 parcels - two which im having trouble with. Flukey or what....
How about the union of webmasters!
If it is a paypal related dispute, THEN you can comply with PayPal's policies to fight it.
As far as the order from france. you have no way of really knowing. I don't think they really can confirm international addresses and such like that. Even verified buyers file chargebacks when they know how to work the system (or claim their account was hacked).
What do you mean if it is Paypal related then you can comply with their policies to fight it?
That is about our track record too. Compared with 1500 standard CC processess that got hit with 18 fraudulent orders in 2003 and 12 chargebacks.
I don't know how we could ever get more secure than paypal. I guess cash would be the only way.
When ordering:
1) Get credit card #
2) Send Encrypted Pin
3) CC company Verfies address
Then if ok CC Company ok's merchant to ship guaranteed. Maybe a cost of .10 per transaction.
If customer chooses cheap method of shipping it is their problem.
What do you mean if it is Paypal related then you can comply with their policies to fight it?
Well... I suppose if the buyer claims that their account was hacked, you have trouble. But if the buyer used buyer protection, PayPal is pretty good about sticking to their rules. For example, if it's an electronic product and they try and use buyer protection, you respond electronic product, policy does not apply. Done, reversed. If it is a physical product and you provide delivery conforrmation or tracking, you respond with that, done.
They are pretty good about sticking to their own policy. It's when the customer actually charges back that you lose almost all the time (with paypal-- I have fought and won chargebacks with a regular merchant account).
PayPal doesn't even give you a phone number, people cut back on a lot of crap when you're on the phone. Oh I'm soooo sorry, sooooo sorry, that was a mistake... blah blah blah
I am trying to understand this. It was a website I sold and he said it was "Not as described." So I tell them it was a virtual product and they do NOT refund his money? Or they DO refund it?
If you designed a website, that's a service, not a virtual product. If you sold someone a website/domain I'm not sure how that is classified. But IF the buyer pays with paypal funds AND they make payment for a transaction not covered under buyer protection, then yes, paypal will stick by their rules regarding that transaction and related disputes.
IT is an intangible product which is anything you can't ship in the mail. IT says on the Paypal website it is inelible for buyer protection. Does that mean they will not give him a refund--since it is NOT elibible for buyer protection?
Seeing that paypal has a separate classification for "service" under thesend money options, I think we are in disagreement on whether designing a website is a service or an intangible product. So to be sure, you should clear this up with PayPal.
Don't mean to disagree with anyone but I use PayPal for one of my sites and it is the one which gets the most reversals, by far. I just hate it when UPS state that it has been delivered into the customers hands and signed for, yet the reversal still goes through.
Are they actually filing chargebacks throught their issuer or disputes with paypal? Paypal doesn't tell you which unless you ask.
Listen novice merchants used to blindy ship any credit card order that got approved until they started getting hit with chargebacks and found out that authorization code does not equal everything is okay. NOW merchants get a PayPal order and blindly assume everything is OK. You STILL need to use fraud protection analysis, judgment calls, some verification with paypal orders too.
Believe me, I have turned down paypal orders too. And there is nothing wrong with shipping only to confirmed addresses SO LONG AS you still accept regular credit cards and paypal is not your only payment option.
we would receive orders, and before we had even sent the items, we would get nasty notes from paypal saying there was going to be a chargeback, which would wind up costing us money before we ever sent anything out....
this was due to paypal immediately debiting the accounts when an order was placed, as opposed to a manual debit when we shipped the item.
needless to say, after about 6 or 8 of these escapades, each costing us $40-$50 in chargeback fees, we decided that paypal was too much of a hassle.
skateboards, it actually sounds like PayPal was doing you a service by catching fraudulent transactions before you shipped out the goods!
I have to admit that the products we sell are hot propoerty for the fraudsters and deviants. Hence we do sometime attract a certain kind of clientele.
In the early days we would be hit hard by countries from Eastern Europe, we were excited by the big orders, and these guys have methods for making you feel comfortable about shipping.
A year later we had stopped doing any overseas and focused just on England. This left me with a clear indication of the UK fraudster hotspots. I dont want to generalise but it goes a bit like this.
Glasgow, Bristol, Middlesex - thats just my experience. It seems to be in places where there is a great deal of anonymoty(?) and where crime might be prevalent.
You typical country folk still have addresses like sunnyhill cottage that is a bit different to flat 31, 7th floor, doomsville.
SO I still take the odd hit of 800$ in these areas.
Any UK order that looks slightly dodgy on Worldpay gets the following treatment.
#1 A phone call requesting landline number that matches the delivery address
#2 Director enquiries or electoral roll check on phone number.
#3 Folow your instincts, if you are not 100% sure dont ship it. This includes considering things like students are away from home where their ccards are reg - these guys will usually have a recognised education authority email address.
If I do get screwed I make sure I phone the mobile they gave me for at least 4 weeks at 3am every morning.
For OVERSEAS orders that are impossible to check with worldpay and such;
#1 Get the customer to fax over their drivers licence, front and back of credit card, utility bill and passport. DONT THINK that this will osse you the sale - most people are happy to do it if they have made the effort to search you out and buy. Its better than loosing your money and the BIGGER cost of shipping.
AVG LOSS to worldpay chargebacks is now 500$ per month.
One final thought - signatures mean jack. All it takes is for the recipient to sign as mickey mouse and they get off with a free dvd player.
Until we all have identity cards and data tags so the couriers can scan us the merchants are going to loose.
Just my two charebacks worth
best wishes and good luck to all.
Not saying problems like that are impossible to happen with PayPal, just less likely. I am sure the chances will go up as PayPal gets even more expansive in the world.
I am sure it also has to do with what you are selling and to what market.
What are your alternative choices, and how good are the alternatives' charback and fraud prevention methods? What are the costs?
The only other way I know that is just as viable, AND accepted worldwide is direct credit card processing.
The cost associated with direct credit card processing is ridiculous compared to PayPal.
Back to the original question, fradulent PayPal transactions, and charbacks - with credit cards, depending on the service or product you sell, you can expect to pay 5 to as high as 15% of the gross. On top of that, the higher (yes higher) rate you pay, the more likely they (Visa, MC, Amex, etc) will take the buyers' side.
So... Is there any other viable alternative?
Hmmm don't know if you can post links here, but try emerchantsgroup or Costco's program (through Nova).
