Forum Moderators: open
When do the members get the source code sent to our inboxes :)
Seriously i think this site is the best place to use as a betta test ground. Loads of members, thousands upon thousands of threads and that makes it perfect for finding problems. The chances are when the software is released it will never to exposed to so much preasure as it has been on here, That surely is the sign of very stable software.
No question about it. Many of the mods had considerable experience with other forum scripts as an owner/admin/mod ...a LOT of that went into the wishlist. The orginal install wasn't a day old before we started asking for heavy-duty tweaks.
2 db choices:
1) Flat Files (default)
2) Sql (sql, mysql, postgres, etc via perl dbi )
DB driven from 3 Interface choices and one archival option.
1) ModRewrite (default) (auto translates html calls to cgi calls)
2) SSI generated (writes the ssi file that calls the cgi's
3) Standard cgi strings.
a) Archival HTML Generate - generates all threads into pure html output using the default styles.
What are you waiting for, Brett? Market BestBBS now, I guarantee it'll bust the competition.
If you release something that could be better someone will see what can be improved and that will go into their development.
If you release something that could be better [...]
Hmmm. If Micro$oft had followed your advice, we'd still be using Windows 3.1. :)
<added>Not that the latest versions are a lot better... ;)</added>
it *must* be priced substantially below the leading bbs software--ubb
it's that simple
at this point, the "bestbbbs" software could more properly be labeled "a potentially great bbs that is heretofore untested"
perhaps with time, the reputation of the software will allow its price to increase quite handsomely
but as a webmaster myself--always looking for the next cool edge in bbs software, no way would I pay "top bucks" for an "untested" system
that being said, I must admit to loving this stuff from the get-go! its upside is awesome
JB
As for People not knowing about it, I think that is a lark. WebmasterWorld is known wide and far. I think the software that runs WebmasterWorld is some of the best BBS software in the world. From a moderator's point of view I think the admin software kicks some serious but. The things you have not see yet on the admin side would really surprise you.
Stick around WebmasterWorld for a while and you will start to notice little things that make you just say, "wow, this is a cool feature"
ubb is by far the dominant bbs product out there...and yet, with all of THAT "market testing", it is still amazing (to me) how many "bugs" are in every re-write of the code
I agree about this stuff--my second email to the staff had to do with the availability of it, in fact
yes, it has been tested here...but with a full release comes all kinds of garbage that the geeks here (a warm and fuzzy phrase) never put the software thru
bottom line--if it's ridiculously priced to start out, it's gonna sit..on the shelf...ain't gonna move
my only point was that you really need to take a serious look at the pricing structure of the big gorilla and undercut him to get a foothold in the market place
at some point in time, the quality of the code will allow for pricing increases (or not--depends on the customer satisfaction)
all that being said, this is still very basic software--you'd have to hack it up pretty good to make a lot of users happy
Ummmm, no. The software is actually very advanced indeed. This specific implementation has many (many, many, many) of the possible features turned off, because users of this forum are more interested in the contents of the messages, than the peripheral wrapping the messages come in.
If I was marketing this software, I wouldn't be interested in small scale implementations. I'd want to go for the high-value, large scale corporate market, and charge accordingly. The software has a demonstrated ability to scale for large numbers of users and page-views, whilst maintaining good speed.
You would end up with a relatively small number of clients, but they will use the software intensively, and learn it quickly, reducing the support load, which is about the ideal situation. IMHO
Visit any support forum for discussion software, and read the "Implementation/Installation Questions & Problems"... you'll find dozens or hundreds of pitfalls encountered using software that in many cases is proven over many installations and releases. (If Brett checks out those forums, he may decide to NEVER release it... a whole new world of handholding! ;))
I guess the support issue might argue in favor of a higher price product for more limited distribution. It would presumably take a lot fewer resources to support one corporate intranet manager than a dozen goofballs on different ten-bucks-a-month shared hosting deals.
Here's one thought - I don't know if the market is ready for this, but for corporate intranet or similar apps, what about sticking the software on an inexpensive little Linux box, kind of like the "e-mail server in a box" things? Those things don't have permanent monitors or keyboards - they are administered by browser. Adding hardware would raise the price further, but would eliminate tons of hassles and support problems...
Lemmee see, would I want to license (annual renewal -something with 4 digits) a custom installation on an intranet or large corporate website complete with the requisite hand-holding (at contract rate) ~or~ release my code to a few thousand screaming meemees at 2 digits a pop and have them demand the same amount of support for free?
I am impressed with the software, no doubt. But I was befungled at all the goofy issues that we had with UBB, especially given the high penetration rate they have in the market--and still couldn't get all their little bugs worked out. That being the case, it logically follows that ANY new software on the market, no matter how thoroughly tested on the market, is going to need enormous backup support, no doubt.
I guess that's what they make e-bug killers for, eh?
my only point was that you really need to take a serious look at the pricing structure of the big gorilla and undercut him to get a foothold in the market place
Marketing is what I do, and in most cases the above is probably the worst possible approach to rolling out a new product or service.
rcjordan and TallTroll have already pointed out huge reasons to do exactly the opposite.
A strong USP (Unique Selling Proposition) is what every product needs, and "Best Price" is only one of many... and in most cases a recipe for disaster.
Niche marketing will trump trying to compete on price with the current market leader almost every time.
Niche marketing is an attitude of business self-confidence. You don't compete solely on price for the broad market. What you do instead is determine who your ideal customer is.
As rcjordan and TallTroll have pointed out quite well... BestBBS' ideal customer is not a webmaster that is looking to cut corners and save a few bucks on their forum solution.
BestBBS has a host of features that cannot be found in this combination *anywhere* else. Just the SEO advantages alone leave all the other forums in the dust. In that sense they don't have to compete... they only need to reach their target market, and guess what?
Their target market (at least one of them) visits this forum by the thousands each and every day, along with journalists and media professionals.
Quality, support, features, benefits, reliable relationships. Many customers value these things more than just the lowest price... and they prove this daily by voting with their wallet.
Some industries, of course, are strictly price-conscious.
Thankfully for Brett and Co., software is generally not one of them.
Then, for the entrprise customers, you roll out the big guns: installation, ongoing support, hand holding, etc., with subscription pricing and hourly rates on top of that for customization, etc.
They know the software they use backward and forward themselves and set everything up for their client companies including completely taking care of the staffing. A lot of companies that "appear" to have community facilities are actually using those contract services. There's a whole different segment of the market out there with a completely different financial structure.
I came here direct from a women's community with over 3,000 message boards that were painfully cumbersome and slow, with very limited capability. I had nothing to do with the back end there, but when anything was needed it was handled by a full time in-house technical staff person. The difference is like day and night.
> ubb is by far the dominant bbs product out there
I have done some research on that idea. From what I can see, there are two other commercial bbs systems currently running that may have more implementations that UBB (PHP Nuke and Vbulletin have made enormous strides in the last year - PHPbb is also gaining ground). That's judging by iding specific proprietary strings that id bbs packages in Google.
>"bugs" are in every re-write of the code
That's part of the reason that from now on, I won't do major updates - just minor continual modifications that get real world proving grounds and feedback.
I do agree that it will need a serious shakedown cruise before going commercial. I'm sure there are over a hundred bugs and bad behaviors that will need to be addressed. That may sound like alot, but there are some sections of the admin routines that rarely get called or tested here.
>all kinds of garbage that the geeks here
Certainly agreed with that and most of your other comments jbage and roger - that's pretty much the way I see it too. I've been around software production and testing enough to see how it will go. I'll get fixed up and a proper send off. It will be competitively priced with what is out there, but at the same time there are many unique features that make it better than what is out there.
>you'd have to hack it up
Every major item is configurable. Any time I saw a place where I figured someone could want something different, I made it a variable and added a config screen option. Sans one - there are currently no major features of competing products that aren't available now. I just have WebmasterWorld configured this way because WebmasterWorld is about the members and their discussions and I try to keep the software out of their way as much as possible.
The two major items remaining to be addressed are language files and unicode. Those are really the same issue to me. They are a very tall order that I don't know if I will get to before the initial release.
Many programs use external files and then just assign text as a variable to provide multi language support. That works great on a top box, but it chews memory and resources time like no tomorrow. There is the overhead hit of accessing and loading the file, combined with the mass memory it uses (often 2 to 3 fold the size of the file). Just one page view on a major competing system can snag memory on the order of 5 to 10 meg of memory can be used (with 15 to 25 not uncommon). That's why some hosts started kicking people off their boxes when they were running that software.
Compare that with BestBSS that will use less than 1 meg on most threads. Using the "swap it" style language files would use very significant amounts of memory (they would easily double memory usage). So, that aspect has yet to be addressed.
>a whole new world of handholding!
hehe - hence the desire to go enterprise level with it and make the price a gatekeeper.
>and still couldn't get all their little bugs worked out.
95 to 5 programming ratio. The last 5% of the bugs take 95% of the time to fix. That last 5% is very difficult to address because you get into cascading bug creation. Fix one thing and break two more before you realize what the fix has done. You have to test and test every little fix to death when you get down there to the end of it.
> (Unique Selling Proposition)
I got it. I know what it is and how to present it. Sometimes you just know, and other times you know that you know. Moments of clarity like that are rare in marketing. I've been blessed with two such moments while doing this software. I got it.
Bears repeating:
> Niche marketing will trump trying to compete on price
> with the current market leader almost every time.
What is that old marketing rule that states something to the effect that you can increase your ad budget 100% and reduce your development costs 50% and still make more money?
>In that sense they don't have to compete.
I'd address the rest of Dante's message, but he is giving away the farm there. Couldn't agree more - very insightfull (thanks).
From a member wishing anonymity in StickyMail:
>this is better than what I'm paying $399 a month for.
I'd address the rest of Dante's message, but he is giving away the farm there.
Giving it away? Not a chance. I won't take anything less than fair market value for it.
Though I'd consider bartering the farm for a copy of BestBBS. ;)
As long as we're thowing out brilliant (? ;)?) strategies, another recurring revenue model would be a hosted discussion solution. Once again, vastly less support would be involved - users would have the admin menus, but wouldn't have access to servers or server settings, greatly limiting the trouble they could get into.
I'm on the look out for a search engine friendly forum myself. My current German language forum which is going through testing before launch uses phpbb2. A powerful forum, however, there appears to be no easy hacks to flatten urls with mod_rewrite or otherwise. I'm currently looking into vBulletin 2 which appears to have a relatively easy hack involving mod_rewrite.
A good example of this implementation is www.visualbasicforum.com. I'm not sure if this site uses the same hack posted in the vb forum or was developed separately but it works with currently over 1,000 threads being indexed...
[google.com...]
Webmasterworld I have to say isn't doing too badly either for pages indexed in google :-) Currently at 7,100 pages (!)
[google.com...]
My problem is I want to launch my German language web promotion forum within 2 weeks so I need a solution fast.
You got a beta version that needs testing Brett :-)?
I'll even help you out with German language forum translations if interested (I live in Germany and speak it fluently).
Otherwise I can see no other choice than take the VBulletin route :-/
Alan
Continued:
[webmasterworld.com...]
