Forum Moderators: open
When I read that message it sounded arrogant to me; these old f*rts thinking they are so special they need their own forum.
I am not so sure about that anymore. For the past month this forum is flooded with many new members posting spammy, insulting and plainly lazy threads.
I am sorry to say it like this. I once posted my first message and really, my first messages (and my current messages for that matter) weren't that clever.
And of course I know there are so many new members here who wish to play the game fair, who first read and then ask, and who never start to insult or threaten other folks. But I think we can't deny there are some new members doing damage to this forum.
The mods are doing a great job in removing spammy or insulting posts, but it looks like they are trying to stop a flood with a sponge.
Shouldn't there be some sort of trial-period in wich new WW-members can show that they are serious and motivated enough to post 100+ messages without the mods having to remove their posts all the time. And then they can move on to the "real" forum?
Perhaps I am getting to old for this game.
Apologies if I am insulting you with this post...
I agree wholeheartedly with martinibuster's analysis and I don't feel that splitting the AdSense forum would offer any advantage. The level of discourse, however, is often lower than in other categories here. I think there are several reasons for this. The "newbie" quotient is just one, but there is also another important reason: AdSense revenue is often a major, principal or sole source of income for many posters, and so the discussions revolve around their very livelyhood which adds a level of stress / pressure / importance not felt in other categories.
the quality level is not only deteriorating because of the mass of stupid questions, but also because of stupid answers
Well put: when you get a newbie posting about obvious TOS violations, "I've been banned" threads, etc., the original post may be offensive, but there is a tendancy for others to pile in and throw insults. Raising the level of discourse requires the participation of all members, new and old, don't you think? It is the whole membership which sets the level of the discussions, so if you think the level is too low, ask yourself what you can do to raise the bar.
If ever the AdSense forum goes premoderated, it should be for everybody as I consider every post by any member, new or old, to have the same face value. This is not some exclusive club, and I don't see any advantage to penalizing a new poster whose contribution may well be extremely valuable.
Anyway, the sky is not falling: I regularly find a wealth of information in the AdSense forum, I post rarely in there but I enjoy reading. The outlook is far from bleak, there is an exceptional mod team in place, and there are many members from new to senior member who are making some great contributions.
so if you think the level is too low, ask yourself what you can do to raise the bar.
encyclo, you're right. stupid answers, me included.
but i think what's critical for the forum climate is the newbie/experienced ratio, which especially since the recent weeks seems to develop dramatically unfavorable when you look at the posts. adsense boom in full effect. if involvement in these threads gets too stressful, ignoring may be one suggestion here. which however leads to experienced members not giving good advice anymore, because the school classes got too big and the return is too low. the consequence is newbie talk all around. just speculating..
the quality level is not only deteriorating because of the mass of stupid questions, but also because of stupid answers
ask yourself what you can do to raise the bar.
Solutions:
If you're a senior member or just a member but know what you're doing, you should
- make it known to the forum’s moderator for any spam or insulting posts
- help the poster doing homework for any stupid questions,
- correct these stupid answers, or
- emphasize any good answer from a newbie.
Don’t ignore.
Also, some forums I have seen, require new users to reply to X amount of posts, or be a member for Y amount of days, before they can create their very own thread. It kind of forces the user to at least browse the current posts where most likely, their question has already been asked.
I like the "wait a few days before first post or new thread" idea, since it mainly hits the terminally impatient/idle.
I don't even THINK about posting in forums for a while until I (think that I) understand what is going on, so I would not have been noticed or been hurt by this restriction at all.
I *don't* like the "must do X posts before starting a new thread", since that creates the "perverse incentive" to make flippant/SPAM posts for a while until the limit is passed: we get quite enough of those already IMHO!
BTW, I've already more-or-less given up on the Google Search News forum because the level of whining and idiocy/noise is too high, even with moderation.
Rgds
Damon
It might also help increase the level of funds flowing into WW.
It might also help increase the level of funds flowing into WW
Although, I follow MartiniBuster's thinking, that's an interesting idea.
And while we are brainstorming here, instead of a fee, how about a moderator traceable link from their Website, demonstrating ownership and commitment.
A nominal $5-10 one time fee would be worth it alright. But I would consider it best not to break the forum in two.
But consider it a fee to post only, in other words potential new members can see what they are paying for and they can search too. I'm not sure if this is technically feasible or not.
Isn't this how bricks and mortar communities evolved. Eventually, someone decided that a tax was necessary :-(
must stop thinking too hard now
how about a moderator traceable link from their Website, demonstrating ownership and commitment.
By "their website", do you mean the moderators have their own closed website, and they could trace our sites from there? I have no problem the mods knowing who I am, but at lot of us (though not all) would want to protect our details from some of the maliciously-minded members of Adsense, and we'd need to be sure that such as system is secure.
A nominal $5-10 one time fee would be worth it alright
That sounds well underpriced, to my mind, and insufficient of a barrier to trolls/fraudsters who keep signing up, getting banned, and then signing up under a new name.
Doing some more brainstorming, if consideration is going to be given to another paid forum, the scope perhaps ought to be a bit wider than just adsense. I'm not only interested in Adsense, for example, but will be in YPN (when it goes international), and other means of generating revenue from our sites.
Perhaps the proposal ought to be for a new private forum focused on "Monetising Websites". That is, it would be of interest not only to those in Adsense, but those in the Advertising World forums as well.
Back to the buy-in price, one option is to make it accessible to WebmasterWorld Supporters only.
how about a moderator traceable link from their Website, demonstrating ownership and commitment.
Members would not have access to this at all - only mods. But even mods can leak. Nobody is perfect. Maybe they would have to sign an NDA or whatever. Just throwing out ideas here.
$5-10 is low for what you get. But I use that number as low barrier to entry, that's all, and not a profit center or a measure of value.
As for as WW monetization goes, don't forget, we all try to contribute, it's a two way street here. It's not a tap of information that we simply turn on, we have to contribute too, and we do it for free, and take the ups and the downs.
Gated communities are very limiting, and that model is not how WW got to be what it is, in my opinion.
Gated communities are very limiting, and that model is not how WW got to be what it is, in my opinion
That's a fair point, but I think there can be a role for a gated community alongside the open community. In fact, I'm a member of a professional forum where each new member is extensively vetted before admission. It is an extremely valuable forum with a high reputation, but it hasn't replaced the open forums by any means.
They can coexist with benefits not only to those within but also those who choose to stay outside, because the focus of discussions is less confused by the different interests of the two groups.
The concept of a gated community appeals to me, it would of course cause some resentment and defections. I think this forum software package could use an upgrade, if my tariff were used for that I'd stand up and cheer! :)
conversely also makes the forum less useful
How do the TOS restrictions make WW less useful?
Which one is more important?
The gated community certainly has it's advantages. But will it survive without the open community?
Sorry - not everyone can answer that, but it might be worth thinking about. And granted, the answer might be different for each member.
How do the TOS restrictions make WW less useful?
Less information = less useful.
Often there is a URL, email text, or company specific information that would be useful to know but is withheld.
A URL is perhaps never useful. The reason is because we would end up doing site reviews. Site reviews are limited in scope. Here is why:
A discussion about AdLinks placement within a certain type of site (let's say a Do it Yourself site) is far more enlightening than discussing the AdLinks placement on someone's plumbing website.
Why is it better? Because more people can participate in a thread about a non-specific website, and more importantly it encourages community.
Fifty posts per day asking people for help fixing their broken site does not encourage community, it does not encourage discussion. Do you really want to spend your day helping people fix their website? Or would you rather pop in and read discussions about issues?
Why are URLS Bad?
Because it encourages post after post after post of newbies asking for people to review their website. That would be taking a step back.
You think there is a quality issue now?
Allow site reviews through the door. You will see less people becoming useful members and more people dropping in for others to tell them how to fix their websites. Does that sound like fun?
You think there's a flood of spam?
Allow URLs to be posted. We encourage members to discuss issues, not to ask people to visit their blog and discuss it here (which is a typical spam post I delete), not to mention the obvious spam posts selling e-books and keyword lists.
WebmasterWorld is about discussing issues and building community. Virtually every single item in the TOS is focused on that mission, it's the heart and spirit behind the TOS.
I am simply saying that it is done elsewhere and doesn't present a problem particularly there. The site review issue is not what I meant as being more useful. Typically it would be an example or a warning.
But I'm not saying you should change, I'm saying it's less useful for me. We disagree.
Personally, I think there is a balance between valuable links and clutter, which can also reduce usefulness, and imho the balance of moderation is about right - and moderation is a tough job to get right!
That sounds well underpriced, to my mind, and insufficient of a barrier to trolls/fraudsters who keep signing up, getting banned, and then signing up under a new name.
Were getting into the trees a little here (and I'm not helping LOL).
It's not just the payment of $5-10 that is the barrier IMO, it's also the setup or use of a Paypal account or credit card number.
It also means the the kiddies might go and bug someone else before starting here.
If you got a pro-troller going around, well how high does the wall go?
Having said all this, you know, it takes time and money to implement changes, with no guarantee of results.
Note: I mentioned earlier that members "contribute for free" blah, blah, - well I know it cost big bucks and moderator time and commitment to run this place, and I don't take that for granted. My hat is off to all the mods -and thank you for this resource.
Professional webmaster forums? Have a look at Adsense and have another guess! In the few years I've been a member here (and supporter) I have never seen such poor quality. It's become so bad that when I see a thread in "recent posts" that looks interesting I double check that it's not in Adsense before visiting and commenting. :(
Suggestion? Revisit the balance between "community" and "quality".
It's not just the payment of $5-10 that is the barrier IMO, it's also the setup or use of a Paypal account or credit card number.
21_blue, I mentioned that the restrictive TOS made WebmasterWorld less useful for me as a passing observation and never intended it to become an issue. In fact if you'll go back to the original post it was an "on other side of the coin" type observation.
So, we disagree, no need to pursue it. I'm certainly not. I visit a lot of forums and each has its peculiarities, its strengths and weaknesses.
The way you and martinibuster jumped on it I seem to have touched a nerve but really it's not a big deal to me...
The way you and martinibuster jumped on it I seem to have touched a nerve
LOL. No nerve touched. No jumping involved.
At first I didn't understand why you made the comment. Once you explained your view, I then just wanted to express the view that the restrictions make it more useful for me.
So we agree that we disagree!
Suggestion? Revisit the balance between "community" and "quality".
I just had a look at all the posts out there on the Adsense Forum. It is look a war zone alright, with EVF "fighting them all off".
When new members come in and see a particular standard they will follow the standard.
On a different note:
When I see headlines like "Google Adsense Millionaires", while it is an interesting discussion to a point, the headline sort of makes me cringe. How much of the Adsense forum problem is self inflicted?
before fiddling around with credit cards or paypal subscriptions:
wait a few days before first post or new thread
this sounds like a very practicable and easy to implement idea for the start. temporal barriers are certainly more counter-optimization resistant than other constraints. kind of sandboxing. or is there a problem with multiple registrations then?
[edited by: moTi at 8:09 pm (utc) on Feb. 9, 2006]
But I have seen many threads that merely compare notes, the "what do you do with your extra cash," type of rambles that were interesting for a while but get tiresome.
Even so, these have their place and I might jump into one if I happen to have some extra time and curiosity about a clever title. These are good places for newbies to compare notes. I do recall feeling very alone when I first signed up to AdSense. It's been 16 months and I have found those "AdSense not updating" threads comforting before I became accustomed to the routines.
When something goes amiss, when I can't log on or something, I do look to the AdSense forum for a thread about it...
I suspect those kinds of threads would remain in an "Ungated" area and I'd still seek them out from time to time.
I suspect those kinds of threads would remain in an "Ungated" area and I'd still seek them out from time to time.
I think this is an important point. There needs to be a forum where newbies can come and find kindred spirits. And I don't think old hands will evacuate the open form - they will still impart their wisdom in the ungated area - but two different cultures will emerge so that each forum makes a different type of contribution to overlapping but slightly different communities.
When I see headlines like "Google Adsense Millionaires", while it is an interesting discussion to a point, the headline sort of makes me cringe
Spot on. The fact that these threads make it to the front page is a sad indictment. Seedier than Big Brother, cheaper than Tarts 'n Far*s*; about as intellectual as "Paris Hilton interviews Naomi Campbell". This is a supposedly a "professional" webmaster forum. Adsense made it possible for any semi-literate six year old to make money from a site. It was therefore inevitable they'd be an influx of such "low-experience" members who'd be hardpressed to ever pass any definition of webmaster. Nothing wrong with that... but it was bound to reduce quality to a point where many experienced members dread to post. If you cater for the lowest common denominator by posting these cringe inducing threads on the home page then it suggests WW is comfortable with the quality decline and, in fact, would like to encourage it.
I still love other areas of WW but I despair that unless something is done about the Adsense forum it will pull the rest of the WW reputation with it.
Another problem: Google evangalism is making a God out of a Google and confusing "Do no evil" with "Can do no evil". Some threads read like they are straight out of a cult! Gone are the days when all sides of a story could be examined without getting all soppy and emotional. Throw in the slightest bit of Google criticism and the high priests start chanting their mantras and ganging up on the non-believers. Here's my take:
IT'S AN INSURANCE POLICY
The Adsense forum has become an insurance policy. Bootlick the big G and if you ever get terminated from the program you can plead your eternal devotion and provide Google your nick to prove your history of support. This is a bigger problem than some may realise (if they even realise that some members' posts are just "insurance premiums"). Who's guilty? This is one religion where you won't get confessions ;)
How do you protect against this? (It is a quality issue)
<edit reason: spelling/grammar>
[edited by: oddsod at 9:26 pm (utc) on Feb. 9, 2006]
MoTI, we agree on something I'm pleased to see! B^>
Yes, as Dorothy Parker said: "Time wounds all heels", ie time is a hard-ish (though not impossible) hurdle to get round, especially for those with the attention span of a cockroach. The "i signed up yesturday and how do i make $500 before lunch" threads and trolling are likely to be much thinner on the ground with that approach. I detect virtually all robots on my sites with a related approach... It also does not involve money which irritates most of us and does not deter rich roaches...
Rgds
Damon
about as intellectual as "Paris Hilton interviews Naomi Campbell"
Can you give me a link to that story, please, I think I missed it. :-)
On a more serious note, what happens next? How do new forums get created in WW? Do we have to hope that the powers-that-be have a good day and decide to do something? Or is there a parallel universe where the mods are right now debating what we are debating, and any time now there will be a UFO sighting leading to a decision being announced?
On a more serious note, what happens next?
I was wondering that too.
Before jumping to conclusions, I think the powers that be should get a handle on the root cause of the problem. I know that sounds kind of simplistic, but the danger is that the true cause is not fixed, and the problem manifests itself as something else in the future.
Before getting to root cause, you have to define the real problem. The problem is the Adsense Forum: "has had a 50% increase in postings since 09-2005"; "has had a 100% increase in visitations by megatrolls since 09-2005";"has twice the number of dumb questions since this time last year";"has had a 30% drop in senior members since June 05", etc,etc,etc.
If you can't define those things, how do you know if you are improving or not?
Look at which problem is giving the most grief. Solve for that one. Pareto 80-20.
The temporal delay and $5 entry fee are shotgun approaches or bandaids which may or may not work. If you get to root cause, you can throw away your shotgun.
Okay - End of "Problem Solving 101" or is it more like 01!
Does it really come down to bandaids and shotguns?
Improved "behavioral" results are always a desired outcome, so good behavioral activity never goes to waste imo.
