Forum Moderators: martinibuster
In general terms - who designed the site has little if anything to do with the website's topics - thus not on theme and irrelevant.
However, should you dedicate a web page at your site, in your portfolio section - to each client - noting their business, markets, industry, (topics) and your relationship with the company and linking to them -- the link from them to you (to this page) would be more relevant, on-topic and both companies would benefit greatly.
As client looking for a "design" company, I would be more persuaded in choosing you - since you may already have expertise in the industry/market my site would reside in.
As an existing customer I would likely retain you for future design because of your professionalism and the choice to receive a link exchange rather than a mandatory one way link to you.
In addition your network (and your clients network) of sites continue to grow, with ethics in mind.
My opinion anyway. :)
[edited by: fathom at 6:04 am (utc) on Mar. 6, 2003]
Someone may just be looking at the layout and design of a site with no interest in the content at all. If they wonder who designed the site then a simple text link will provide that information in a non-obtrusive way (I use a very light gray with a darker hover). I consider in that context a link to the designer is relevant.
As has been mentioned here before I think a single link from the home page is sufficient, rather than from every page.
Another opinion ;).
Your link exchange philosophy is a good one though and is something to aspire to I think.
Fathom, I tend to disagree
That's why we discuss things here ;)
Someone may just be looking at the layout and design of a site with no interest in the content at all.
hmmm... assuming new potential clients don't look for you under "design", "websites" or something to that affect, they wouldn't commonly go searching and look for sites that bear no interest to themselves... that's a bit of a stretch.
Someone interested in a new "dog breeding" design will not "commonly" go looking under "software" websites, for design "look & feel".
I agree the link/linkage is important. But important to both designer and client - and my above post did not reflect this shouldn't happen.
What I am saying the link exchange (if any) should be mutually beneficial, if not - it certainly isn't in the clients best interest to have your's presence.
I guess this works better if you are a specialist in a particular market, and you are dealing with a smaller network of people than usual. You can get known as the 'web site guy' in that market and some of those links can help to initiate that IMHO.
An exchange of links is the ethical thing to do as you point out. If you have a high Google PR it is a nice free boost for the client's site too ;).
A tip: Create 6-8 different keyword rich links to use and rotate them, placing them on never more than 3 pages of any site. That would be a homepage, a recommend page and if as a designer you can offer your own article or content for a page and get a link for that. The rest is overkill.
So along with Emma’s two suggestions you would add a few more
Blue Widget Web Development
Web Development and Design Blue Widget
Web Site Design by Blue Widget
Blue Widget Designs Web Sites
Work it. Every link is an opportunity. Not only do I recommend people think before they link to protect them from risky situations, the same advice applies to maximizing opportunities. Good job Emma and thanks for bringing the tip forward.
From talking with corporate web site owners (not the guys who run it, but the ones signing checks the topic came up relating to off-shore programming) they tend to refer their team by "look at site A and B, I want it just like it, or something like it"... verses actually searching for information in a SE or directory.
So, a simple link from - let's say the contact page - would be sufficient, and non-obtrusive. A link on every page with a flash or Java applet would be a bad bad bad idea...
A link on every page, right around the bottom next to the copyright info is tolerable (whatever format it is in) but a bit pretentious.
1) A text link on the site you designed. This is just a good way to promote your company; I've even given a discount to have this advertising link on their home page.
2) An overview page of your work, for that customer, in that industry, will add valuable selling content to your site.
I believe maintainability is not really an argument in this case since using the right tool [webmasterworld.com] changing one page is as simple as changing hundreds. Additionally the larger the site the less like will they consist out of static html pages.
I would think that whether putting a link on every page is suitable for a given situation will depend on the size of the site, the money you make on that client, the impression you want to make. For smaller sites where you make less money I´d put the link on every page. If you are building larger, more complex and more professional sites on which your margin is rather higher than on the smaller sites I´d go for just a link or a paragraph or two on the contact page.
Andreas
Nice script, thanks Andreas. Other options that could do this:?
-My (free) editor does a very quick global find/replace on occassion with several hundred pages open.
-Use SSI for the menu/footer, link contained therein
Steve
From the little that I've read, it seems I'd be better served to place a link on the pages themselves, however isn't that a distraction on the clients pages?
I do keep a list of clients and screen caps on my pages with links to the sites themselves. A synopsis of the design, special considerations, and solutions to any problems is also kept there.
Would I be better served to place a link on their pages to my own?
538 backlinks from it. It ain't hurting them!
If the link is very small and unobnoxious it can be beneficial both in terms of links *and* more importantly- potential new business.
Just my 2 cents...
AW
It's highly unlikely that Google is unaware of the clear cut differences between the two industries, and it would be very surprising if they'd penalize designers for what's a long-established tradition and standard practice, as well as legal protection for the intellectual properthy rights of the designer, which is quite necessary in some cases. Putting a credit line bottom of pages by a designer is by no means the same thing as what some SEO practices entail. It's a different discipline, except where the two are combined, which isn't always the case.
IMHO the worst scenario that would happen is that Google could diminish the value of multiple links from the same site to equalize matters for PR purposes. I believe that even though it hasn't been much spoken of, it's already happened more than once.
A small, unobtrusive text link on the bottom of every page giving credit to the web/graphic designer is not only traditional but accepted practice. And yes, there are absolutely customer inquiries that come because people like what they see in the way a site is done.
From the tone of your post it implies most SEO's are NOT from a web designer background?
So, where do 'they' [people reading this forum] come from background wise?
More from programming field than design field?
AW
..it would be very surprising if they'd penalize designers for what's a long-established tradition and standard practice..
I'm sure Google does not like penalties, they like neutralising adverse effects towards their ranking algorithm.
IMO, google has already taken care of this. It does not sound like a difficult thing to weigh neutrally.
>consider putting "Design" after the title, as in Site by Blue Widget Design instead of Designed by Blue Widget.
>A tip: Create 6-8 different keyword rich links to use and rotate them, placing them on never more than 3 pages of any site.
There are some great ideas being shared here, thanks! I think I'll try implementing all of these together to see how they work.
What do you thing about adding a regional aspect to the link, such as the name of your city or state? I've had some success promoting "city widget", but I've never thought about doing that through the incoming links from our clients.
Agreed vitaplease, it's never gotten down to any hard evidence, but there's been suspicion (admittedly unsubstantiated) and some quiet talk among some with web design people that there has at times been not a penalty at all, but a devaluing - as you said, neutralizing - effect on multiple links from the same site. No concrete proof, it's just seemed that way on the surface.
There's just been a PR drop in such a case with no loss of links numerically, though the number has stayed the same even with the inclusion of ODP and Google Directory links. It isn't evident looking at the homepage with the toolbar, but it can be seen by following through to check the results in a domino effect, which can show whether it's at the high or low end of a given toolbar number. The PR drop hasn't affected rankings at all for that site's homepage or a subsidiary section (which has actually increased with no external links) - but that could quite possibly be attributed to the ODP inclusion. It did drop in rankings a few months ago with no change in number of links, which could be attributed to a certain design alteration - or a devaluing.
In this particular case it's not even near conclusive whether it's even a factor in the PR drop, since an outbound link was added on most of the pages and that most certainly does have an effect on overall PR for the site. It isn't reciprocated, most certainly would not be to an equal degree and even if it were to the index page it still wouldn't compensate for the overall loss in this particular site. This could be an actual case of "PR leakage." One thing is evident - outbound links should be examined in terms of PR affects, especially if there are recips involved.
Most of those links are removed, so something might change the update after the coming crawl, though one site that's got links back on every page will show the recent inclusion in the Yahoo Directory (good category, nice PR, not many outbounds comparatively) at the next update. It'll take careful researching of all the factors this coming update and follow-up with the next.
There would have had to be only one change at a time to come closer to evaluating anything near conclusive, so it remains pure conjecture.
I've actually been in the process, with whatever spare minutes are available, of preparing individual pages about a few client's sites, for a specific justifiable purpose, and for the most part I've got free reign and am welcome to request "whatever" back - but at this point in time I'm hesitant about links to those pages at all - they might even be robots.txt excluded altogether, for several reasons.
All in all, there hasn't been evidence of any risk with the traditional inobtrusive every_page link backs to design sites. Unless the client doesn't agree to it, there doesn't seem to be any reason not to. I'd seriously hesitate with anything less traditional and unobtrusive, not wanting to appear promotional - particularly in the event of a search engine hand check.
My personal belief is that it's in how the sites are linked back and forth that suspicions could be raised. I just haven't heard of any major risk so far for the normal way, but don't care to make unnecessary waves. Google's not warned the public about web designers; they most certainly have about SEOs. When the two are combined it's probably wisest to stick with conservative traditional methods and stay on the safe side.
