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outsourcing link development

interesting observation

     
4:53 pm on Nov 26, 2005 (gmt 0)

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I have several probs.

First of all, most of the "bidders" are not workers themselves but an organizations which pay less to worker (I believe 2 times less at least).

Second thing I've opened several projects on sites like guru, elance, etc and the bidders are clearly mind broken and have only basic english skills while I'am asking for the one with excellent english communication skills.

I'am offering $350-$400 for a month of dedicated work(based on 40 hours week)

Funny thing is that in india $200 is a good salary and $300 is an EXCELLENT salary, but I still have no luck in finding even a moderate worker for my project.

Any suggestions?

1:09 pm on Nov 27, 2005 (gmt 0)

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I live in a 3rd world coutry where the minimum wage is like 200/mo and the thing is, you get what you pay for.

People with computer skills and fluency in English are not going to work for that. And they are not going to give you 40 hours a week unsupervised no matter how much you pay them.

So lets say the national average is 250/mo salary. Fine well the average job is banana picking so unless you want bananas picked you are going to have to pay more.

I have heard of link farms in this country but they don't generally hire out, they are busy promoting their own sites. They set up an office that looks rather like an internet cafe, and kids come in after school and go out link hunting. They get like 1 dollar for a one way link and .50 for a reciprocal. Once they have their lunch money or their tuition or whatever they're after they move along and someone else takes over.

Hmmm... I'm getting an idea...

3:20 pm on Nov 27, 2005 (gmt 0)

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thanks for posting

I'am too from the country with $200 wages. The problem here that unlike India, English is not widely used here at all.

..raised the wage to $400 and will raise by 50 every 2 weeks until pick someone. :)

6:16 am on Nov 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

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I'am offering $350-$400 for a month of dedicated work(based on 40 hours week)

You get what you pay, and the cheap guy always pay twice.¦
Just did this same scenario and it got me into nothing but troubles.

Bottom line is if you pay very little, or pay people who do not have a full understanding of the business, you are relying on novices to help you with the number one aspect of your site - ranks.

8:30 am on Nov 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

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when you are lettin' othere do such an important and sensitive activities for your site, you need to pay to get what you want.

With Link building being an very important seo activity, one wrong move and your site stands to loose everything.

Don't think that $400 being a very good salary in India, you will get good job done. Someone will agree to work for you but finally you will see that you have put yourself in a mess after that.

The average cost per month ranges from USD $600 and up as being from this filed I know it.

Also the cost will highly depend on how many links you will want to secure per month.

9:00 am on Nov 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

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cyclinder,

Fundamental problem with your approach is looking for guys in elance and such places. Guys who start their career through elance are the ones who don't have good local clients and/or would be happy to work anonymously, meaning trouble. Don't go after guys who come after you. Do your research, find a company with a website with their address and phone no. on it. Look for their client list and results, interview them over phone/messenger to confirm they know what they claim to know. Pay generously. $400/pm is not a BIG carrot to dangle in front of a person with experience in the field. Mind you, good ones who come to SEO have IT/design background and IT industry pays generously for good talent in India.

Added: You can't compare the money you give to an individual with the national average or even industry average salary. The difference is security. Person working on a regular job is happy with lesser salary with other benefits, provident funds, prospects of gaining tangible experience that he/she can put on CV, and the support from peer group. But with a job, that he/she is not certain about running for even one more year, being paid from some faceless entity, they will feel insecure.

3:39 pm on Nov 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

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>>>Guys who start their career through elance are the ones who don't have good local clients and/or would be happy to work anonymously, meaning trouble

I'm assuming you're speaking strictly of link developers in this regard. I've worked with plenty of quality people from elance... but I would also never dream of hiring a link developer on elance.

As far as the link developers not providing results - what type of training are you providing them with? Most link builders I've heard about being utilized don't perform near as well as my own link dev team - but they are in house and got a lot of training. You can't exspect them to be an expert (especially for 400 a month - even in third world countries) ... Anyone already "highly trained" in link development tactics is managing link developers, not working as one (IMHO).

>>>get what you pay for

There are two types of link developers - drones and marketers. The first is cheap, the second is effective - most people with a home/small business need to find (or create with training) a cross between.

9:48 pm on Nov 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

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We did a great deal of work in a country that although was not a third world nation, the average national salary was quite meagre. One thing that we learned by the end of the year... you may get a bargain price for skilled labour, but it is not bargain basement. From a technology standpoint, we found that most of the well trained employee's were quite entrepenurial. That was great when it came to hiring a self starter, who would continue to learn and evolve.. but was expensive come salary review.. in the end it was ALWAYS cheaper to get good talent, help train it, and keep it happy, than to try and low ball..
7:09 am on Nov 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

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trigate,

this is a quite common strategy, and applies to just every industry inc. offline.

Could you please at least reveal the country name?

Thanks.

9:43 am on Nov 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

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Sounds like England......
6:50 pm on Nov 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

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"in the end it was ALWAYS cheaper to get good talent, help train it, and keep it happy, than to try and low ball.. "

learned again and again the hard way.

The real trick is seperating the chancers from the talented and good.

7:01 pm on Nov 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

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talented means smart.

do smart monkeys exists? I doubt so.

linbuilding = monkey work.

see the conflict here?

7:06 pm on Nov 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

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$600 is less for Indian worker.
11:27 pm on Dec 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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Do monkeys read webmasters forums? I doubt so.

Try finding them monkeys somewhere in the jungle. ;)

8:46 am on Dec 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

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Linkmonkeys (defined in a previous thread) have to be taken care of just right. Hmmm...The Care and Feeding of a Live-to-Link, Link-to-Live LinkMonkey, by neuron... nah!

You do have to take care of your linkmonkeys if you are ever going to make headway. LM's need to be fed. I have about 25 of them and we feed six meals per day. LM's don't require as much pay as people who speak and write perfect English, or as much as php/mySQL programmer with 3 to 4 years of experience, but you do have to pay them decent money.

Linking is hard work, and it is very taxing on the mind. Linkers need regular breaks and they need reasonable expectations. Some people want a lot of links and then complain that their linker got them crap links, others want only top-quality links and then complain their linkers got too few links. How many links can you get in an hour? Can you get more than your linker? Yeah, okay, Superman, whatever. Linking is damn hard work. Why is it you wanted to hire it out?

After you've fed your monkey, and you've set reasonable expectations, and agreed to pay him fairly, you need to monitor his work. You should review at least 50 samples of his work each week, and you must offer feedback on those linking actions so that your linkmonkey will be able to improve, and learn what you like and don't like.

To enhance performance of your linkmonkeys, pay them on a scale according to their perceived quality of links. We pay linkers by the square of their performance level, with 100% being perfect performance and 0% being no performance. This square-root-of-one curve makes it so that linkers that are really good get great pay and those that can't link, get so little pay that they move along.

Appreciate your linkers and have contests with prizes between them. A cash prize for best linker of the month can do wonders.

If you don't have your own linkmonkey that knows what you want and how you want it done, then you have to depend on the help of a used link monkey. The problem with used link monkeys is that they may have been link monkeys for a dozen different monkey drivers and they know how to link, but what they know is not what you know and not what you want. It s a seriously difficult problem to fix a link monkey gone bad, one that has already picked up bad habits. So, beware of link monkeys that have been compromised and keep them in good company when you do find a good one.

11:04 am on Dec 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

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Honestly I've always seen poor results when outsourcing - guys keep on ass-kissing you all the time and send you the most polite emails but brings only trouble-
Not talking about link building but about development, my company tried and it looked great at the beginning, then we started increasing salaries - Then when the outsourced guys noticed that they could get even more money, they made a binch of excuses to rip us off- terrible experience.
I would assume that it would be the same with link building -
Just my own experience, I take it with a grain of salt, we tried only once (thanks god!) and we may have found the worst workers around I guess.
4:24 pm on Dec 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

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$350 is not big deal in 3rd world as someone told here before. Pay a serious salary and perhaps you will get what you want. If you want excellent english, don't look for indian or others, pay it in your own country. Surely people that may work for that are not much interested.

Other points:

How do you pay your link developers? Just a flat rate no matter how many links they get?

What happens with links deleted after linking in first time?

How do you control the anchors?

Do they have access to your linking pages in your own domain?

6:58 am on Dec 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

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This is a very interesting thread :)

I have had a team of in-house monkeys, and it did work well, the only problem, it became very time consuming and my time is better spent on our bigger projects.

When stumbling on the freelance sites, I was hounded with offers ranking from $350-600 a month. The truth is, their English is terrible, and I doubt they are meticulous about quality, the way I am.

I live in a semi first world country, and I have been able to hire at the above rate in my home country.

One thing you must take into consideration is as link building continues, you will get spreadsheets of sites that you can get your links on per industry.

Therefore, we could have link finders and link submitters?

Hmmm, I should get 20 of these guys, train them well and outsource :)

In an ideal world we could all outsource to India, and the job would get done? However, as I have discovered, you get one bad linker, and your site ends up on FFA pages with 2000+ links.

If you want quality/quantiy and results , it must be done in-house.

12:44 pm on Dec 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

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After reading all these posts, my fears were all confirmed about outsourcing, I want to thank you all for reviving my link building spirits! I am going to rebuild my teams, if you want things done well, I guess you gotta do in-house.
1:13 pm on Dec 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

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yep, i've already got the same experience - people claiming that their English is perfect but it is terrible(first lie),
people say they will work on pace, but it turns out that they are too lazy(second lie).

at the end there are a lot of plain stupid ones, I even think a basic IQ test should be performed first, since for many studying little program like Arelis is already a hard work and very painful to their minds and take weeks.

And it does not matter how nuch you'll pay them...

4:52 pm on Dec 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

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at the end there are a lot of plain stupid ones, I even think a basic IQ test should be performed first

You are 100% right. Of my 5, I had one that was clueless, he really could not master links. I just kept him with the other guys because I felt sorry for him.

Maybe we should start a thread:

"IQ test for your prospective link builders"

5:14 pm on Dec 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

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Came across a Gift Basket site that ONLY sold to the US yet ALL its links were Indian ;-)
6:08 pm on Dec 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

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Straying a little OT. I for one will never call link builders as link monkeys. It is downright humiliation and trivializing the guys and the profession. I hope to see a resistance towards addressing them as monkeys, even in light humor.
3:28 pm on Dec 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

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It is downright humiliation and trivializing the guys and the profession.

True, thats why we are joking about it here :)

When I hire them, their title is "link engineer".