Forum Moderators: phranque
We have used it since 1999 to create our well placed websites.
As a beginner, you might also want to develop a good habit early on. Validate your pages. There are a lot of invalid pages on the web today (I might own a few of them myself) and for all purposes they look just fine. Invalid HTML can hurt your efforts of achieving good results, and validation is easy to do.
If you simply absolutely MUST select a point and click solution use something like Dreamweaver.
Front Page is one of those "black box" solutions that when it works it makes you shine but when it's broke it makes EVERYONE look like an idiot. There are things that go wrong with Front Page that require hours and hours of admin efforts to figure out and get working.
Want example? The whole MS theme business makes F.P. published web pages work in a way completely different than "normal html." Manual editing of any of the site files can be disastrous, disabling the F.P. schemes.
Worse yet, support is a painful issue. Many of our F.P. customers immediately assume it's the ISP's fault when things go wrong. I mean, Microsoft can't have anything wrong with their software, it must be US, right?
Secondly it's proprietary. It requires Microsoft server-side stuff, even if it's on a linux server, and you are once again putting yourself at the mercy of Microsoft for an otherwise platform-independent solution.
Everyone wants it quick, everyone wants it cheap, but you can't get much quicker or cheaper than a weekend with Notepad and a good HTML tutorial. I don't understand why people have a problem with this: they somehow think that throwing $300-$400 at some program is going to be easier. You still have to learn to use the program, which often takes longer than HTML. But that's just IMO.
Good luck
Rod
Do not even attempt using notepad and writing html , it's a total waste of your time.
You want to build web pages not spend your days writing code that FP can produce in seconds.
that dosent mean you cant or shouldnt learn html and you can still learn html simply using FP , you can work in design view or code view or split view...split view is an excellent learning toolbecause you see the coding as you are making changes in design view.
Dreamweaver is bloated ,expensive and not very intuitive.. FP 2003 is easy to learn and a powerful application .
You should probably know that Frontpage and Dreamweaver both let you edit code directly. They even have helpful color coding and help features to help you learn as well.
Also (and I just learned this today) Dreamweaver has a cross-browser code validation feature that will help you to create clean code.
good luck!
Dreamweaver's split view lets you see the page and the code.
It is worth getting familiar with the HTML but I wouldn't say you need to know it all by heart.
Bookwise... I'm very much a fan of Visual Quickstart Guides - which ever way you decide to go.
zoo
Some good points have been made in this thread. I would spend a few dollars on an HTML book and learn to code in a text editor. There's nothing like experience to help you become a better coder. It may take a little longer to get the desired results, but you'll gain a better insight into how your pages work, IMO. You can also learn HTML for free - this would be a good place to start: [w3.org...]
If nothing else, bookmark the page for reference. And, of course, this forum is one of the best resources you'll find anywhere.
Not only will you be spending money that you don't need to, there will be many things that you will never know or have the chance to enjoy.
Kids are learning HTML in elementary school. It really isn't that hard. The markup simply reflects what you already know about written language - paragraphs <p>, headings <h1>, lists <ul><ol>, etc. - so it really is simple to get your head around.
CSS, while a tad more obscure, can be learned in only a few dedicated hours.
WBF
I especially want a program that is search engine friendly so that my web page is listed well in the serps with good headings, tags etc...
Understanding the page structure and how to optimize those items for the best results will determine how you rank not the program or language (html,asp,php,jsp,cfm...)used to develop the site. Using the appropriate keywords within your textual content is one of the most important hurdles, webmaster world and other forums provide a wealth of knowledge from experienced site owners, designers, developers and others visit some of the forums for learning how to optimize your site.
Do not even attempt using notepad and writing html , it's a total waste of your time.
You want to build web pages not spend your days writing code that FP can produce in seconds.
This comment ignores the moment of critical mass at which writing any kind of code moves from a ponderous lurch to near-thoughtless waltzing. If you're spending days (or even hours, or even an hour) handwriting html source code, that probably means you haven't gotten enough practice at handwriting source code.
I can hammer out the HTML for a page template in minutes, literally, and I am by no means the web design expert that many on this forum are. The CSS to style that html code takes a little longer, probably longer than WYSIWYGing with DW or FP, but at the end of the coding process I know what I've got on the page, what it's doing, how and why.
That's the real benefit of handcoding over WYSIWYG: you know exactly how each element is being coerced into doing what it does. With DW and FP, you often have no idea what sort of spaghetti code the editor is writing. For instance, you can recognize a DW4 document in an instant b/c it uses <span> tags for every bleeping thing. It's bloated and messy and inefficient. Hardly a good trade off for a little saved time.
cEM
or m'am. . . ummm m m
I've tried to clean up a few F.P. sites, it's like putting socks on a rooster. Even Dreamweaver makes a mess. Has anyone else seen this?
<font face="Arial"><font color="#FF0000"><font-size="+1">hi!</font></font></font>
Or how about this one?
<font face="Arial"><font color="#FF0000"><font-size="+1"></font></font></font><font face="Arial"><font color="#FF0000"><font-size="+1"></font></font></font>
Let's forget that the font tag has been depricated for years, and that all of those sets could be managed in one tag, but the fact remains you will find instances of that second set - font tags without actual copy- on almost any web page that's been created by F.P. or D.W. I worked closely with a developer who was in love with D.W. - even the best automated methods of cleanup in D.W. left artifacts.
if you really wanted to use a WYSIWYG app, use dreamweaver. you could start in the split view (design/code) to see how the code works--and the extra stuff DW puts in--you'd be frightened if you saw the extra stuff frontpage adds. i use DW in the code-only view to markup HTML (because i own it already). DW is a bit pricey and if you learn HTML you won't need it.
you can find good tutorials here:
[w3schools.com...]
With DW and FP, you often have no idea what sort of spaghetti code the editor is writing.
Actually you do have an idea if you configure the program out of the box to your liking. If you leave everything set at default, both programs are going to add quite a bit of backwards compatible code. It is the nature of the beast.
Both programs can be configured to produce valid XHTML pages utilizing CSS and CSS-P. There are very few limitations. And, if you are the hard core Text Editing geek, you can work in that view whenever you wish. Or, you can even work in both views, normal and html.
There are many other advantages to using a WYSIWYG editor to maintain a site. Forget about the misuse of the program by users for a moment and look at everything else that is offered from a site maintenance perspective. There are very few things either program cannot do.
For instance, you can recognize a DW4 document in an instant b/c it uses <span> tags for every bleeping thing. It's bloated and messy and inefficient. Hardly a good trade off for a little saved time.
I'm going to assume that this was due to something the user did when adding WYSIWYG styling to their content. You know, those buttons that are all over the place that allow you to do this and do that. Most of them are going to generate some sort of backwards compatible code.
There are a few of those buttons that you can use but the main area you will work in is your CSS styling menu wherever that may be. I have mine to the top left of my WYSIWYG view for quick access.
Let's not degrade the editors being discussed here. Both FrontPage and Dreamweaver are powerful tools when in the right hands. ;)
Things to be aware of when using FrontPage [webmasterworld.com]
It reminds me of all the geeks slamming GUI browsers 15 years ago, hell we dont need no damn graphical browsers lets all play in DOS all day.
Or Cpanel or Plesk backends... the same types of people will tell you those are worthless and you should learn to write to your web servers ..
yada yada yada yada ;)
Both programs can be configured to produce valid XHTML pages utilizing CSS and CSS-P.
Let's not degrade the editors being discussed here. Both FrontPage and Dreamweaver are powerful tools when in the right hands. ;)
All this HTML handcoding talk is nauseating ..
either you want to build pages or you want to write code
A web designer ignoring the code is like a contractor ignoring the blueprints and just slapping together pre-fab walls in a way that "looks right."
What does it mean if my website looks fine in internet explorer but looks different on netscape? why is this and how can I fix something like this?
The short (but not immediately helpful) answer is that designing and coding to adhere to web standards is the best approach, followed by some hacking/workarounds to make non-compliant browsers like IE behave.
I strongly recommend spending some time reading and asking questions in the CSS forum [webmasterworld.com], since most cross-browser problems and solutions lie in the proper use and application of styles.
cEM
That first document still exists on the web today, slightly modified from its original. I used that document to play with DHTML as well. Sure, it looks pretty crappy in the overall scheme of things. But it works, it is valid markup, and I'm happy enough with it to leave it alone.
That first document and all that were added to it later were done in Notepad.
Nowadays, I use WYSIWYG in certain circumstances, direct coding in others.
WYSIWYG editors can be useful, but, to get your money's worth, you have to know the strengths and weaknesses of your editor. For this, you need to know how to code (X)HTML. I'm therefore in complete agreement with createErrorMsg here.
I TOTALLY disagree. It is a tool - a very powerful at that. I get the feeling that those who do not like Dreamweaver have not spent the time to understand it's potential.
If you were pick up a chisel and begin to whittle with no experience, skill or talent the resulting sculpture is not likely to be much cop, put a chisel in the hands of a craftsman.... You see what I am getting at.
Apart from the ability to build sites very quickly without necessarily 'needing' to understand every inch of what is going on, there are a few important features about DW04 that don't get mentioned very often:
Dreamweaver is a Swiss Army knife, a compact tool with every thing you need, you just have to know how to use it.
Going back to the original question:
For A Beginner, what is the best program to use to make web pages
It is great for a beginner, but if you are going to use a WYSIWYG you must also learn HTML too so you understand what it is doing and how to fix those inevitable bugs.
I understand that it is extremely bloated code because it is always a complicated table layout, but it is quick, visual and easy to use.
It will get you started on a complicated layout and give you something to play with in your favorite text editor. (BBEdit hasn't been mentioned yet)
I understand that it is extremely bloated code because it is always a complicated table layout, but it is quick, visual and easy to use.
Actually, ImageReady is my tool of choice when slicing, dicing and adding behaviors. It also has an option to export as CSS which is where I really learned how to use CSS and CSS-P.
Umm you're missing the point, right from FP I can validate the code and I can cross browser check . I never have a problem ranking.
The guy that started this thread is a beginner and FP will allow him to make dynamic pages , add maps ,themes, add Javascripts , add spredsheets and offic documents , slide shows and photo albums , he can add a search or other forms etc..he can do all of this with just a few mouse clicks
If he starts hand coding then next week he'll be in here going Ok ..I think I am getting the hang of it know how do I add a form , a photo album , a theme, a spread sheet etc..
With FP he can not only do all this with a few mouse clicks he ALSO see's the coding that goes into it (from split view) and he is learning the coding at the same time .. Then if he thinks wow all that code is cool then he can make a life of playing around in code..but in the mean time the guy just wants "For A Beginner, what is the best program to use to make web pages" FP is a perfect fit
btw..thanks for the link..my nausea has setteled ;)
