Forum Moderators: phranque
What is actually classed as SPAM. Obviously emails like Viagra sales sent every day (5 times a day) is spam.
What if a one off email is sent to targeted potential customers eg emails sent to sports shops asking them to sign up on a directory/portal for sports shops/equipment for free.
Is this spam too?
Im asking this, as i too get fed up with the emails offering mortgages or viagra which come through every day. But ive had a few one off emails with the example above, offering to go into a free directory. Ive actually posted my business details and have had a good response from these directories. So im glad of these one off emails, as without them i would never of known about the service they offer.
whats your thoughts?
But, I would be inclined to think more in terms of what people are likely to complain about.
Yes, someone sending me unsolicited mail selling viagra does annoy me and if I thought I could complain and get them to stop, I would.
But, someone sending me an unbsolicited mail regarding my business (for example offering content, or additional services), I would read and follow up or discard, but not be that bothered about actually receiving the mail.
If you are sending individual mails to select addresses, I dont think you have much to worry about.
Scott
In general, spam e-mail is not targeted, it simply uses the "e-mail everybody" approach.
If you've made every effort to provide a sensible, targeted communication it is unlikely to be seen as spam.
Be sensible about your e-mails and, if you are e-mailing a list, offer ways for them to unsubscribe.
A "one off" email to me is just a disturbing as a "Viagra" spam. I know Pfizer isn't sending me these "5" emails per day announcing their product.
If 1000 sites get launched every day, according to your logic, you should be "glad" that each one let you about their site via email, right?
No, I don't think so, in fact, you should probably learn about the Boulder Pledge:
http*://www.scambusters.org/stopspam/#Pledge
If I want to visit a sports portal I will type "sports" into the GTB. If "Sports-And-Fishing-Portal.com" wants me to visit, they better SEO their site, or buy AdWords.
In fact, if you want to make sure that I don't visit your site, send me a UCE for it to one of my email addresses.
In addition to not visiting it, I will probably file a complaint with the domain name registrar, the ISP that was used to send the email, the website's hosting company and the hosting company's upstream provider.
In fact, if you want to make sure that I don't visit your site, send me a UCE for it to one of my email addresses.In addition to not visiting it, I will probably file a complaint with the domain name registrar, the ISP that was used to send the email, the website's hosting company and the hosting company's upstream provider.
My guess is that your complaint will probably be ignored, and, if not, I would probably file a counter suit againt you for impinging my first amendment rights.
There is a difference between the 100 Viagra/vicodan/get rich emails received every day, and one from legitimate businesses trying to sell their products.
If you can reply to the email and ask to be removed that is not SPAM, anymore than receiving a flyer in the mail from a neighborhood store is spam. The business is offering something of potential value to you, and an effective means of letting you know about their business is to send you an advertisement.
If the profile of my ideal customer is someone who uses the internet, then email is a legitimate means of reaching that customer. I don't bombard my customers with 100 useless ads (does anyone actually buy viagra/vicodan/etc?) but I do send mailings to targeted lists.
As for the search engines, I don't waste my time waiting for people to find me. Any successful business person will tell you that waiting for customers to find you is a sure way to ensure failure. You need to identify and find customers. And email is a viable way to find customers.
I will fight any blanket anti-UCE laws as unconstitutional.
I will fight any blanket anti-UCE laws as unconstitutional.I suspect "unconstitutional" doesn't mean much outside of the United States. ;)
My view is completely opposite of txbakers. I view UCE just as I view telemarketing calls. I pay for telephone service and Internet access. Since it's at my expense, I should have the choice of whether or not I receive unsolicited advertising. In contrast, broadcast television is free, so by watching, I choose to tolerate the advertising.
A "spammers" right to free speech conflicts with my right to privacy. Spammers are free to say anything they like, but that doesn't mean they can say it anywhere or anytime they like. That doesn't mean they have the right to use the resources I pay for or to invade the sanctuary of my home or office to say it!
Most communities have ordinances regarding "disturbing the peace." These are laws that define where one person's rights end and another person's rights begin. We need similar laws for telemarketing and UCE.
Opt-out options are great in theory but many unscrupulous spammers simply seem to use opt-out responses to verify that an email address is valid. Some UCE seems to have no other purpose than to elicit a response, perhaps to generate verified email lists. Telemarketers respect opt-out requests for the most part, because of strong federal regulations that are used to enforce the requests.
A blanket anti-UCE law similar to the do not call list that's presently in the news is the only solution that will satisfy me.
UCE will probably generate a profit for a few more years - until web newbies become relatively rare. But I'd like to see online marketing shake out to a standard practice, enforced by law: email is for customer retention, and not customer acquisition.
Email as a vehicle for new customer acquisition is just too problematic (sorry if that contradicts anyone's business plan.) UCE is costing the world too much in lost productivity -- and the reality is that this siutuation will not be tolerated for too much longer. Money talks.
I don't think any parallels or analogies apply fully to e-mail. We've got something new on our hands here, and we need to work out what is sane for this new thing. Even under the US Bill of Rights, there are limits on free speech and some limits will be applied to email.
Right now, AOL and some other aggressive anti-spam organizations classify anything as spam just because the recipient says it is spam. That is way over the top in the other direction. This is going to be quite a ride!
This is going to be quite a ride!
It certainly is! And I'm glad to see the mods take a sane approach to this discussion. THANKS.
Customer Aquisition accounts for at least 30% of any good business plan. If my target customer is a person that regularly uses the internet and understands email, then the ideal way to reach that customer is by sending them an email.
It makes no business sense for me to send a flyer in the regular mail asking them to go to their computer to test my product, when by sending email, they are already there and can click a link to demo my product.
With a 1/2 second delete, email is far less annoying and time consuming to destroy than regular bulk mail, and less intrusive than telemarketing. (Except when my filter pops up during a sales presentation with a subject of "Make her happier (pg version there....)).
With a 1/2 second delete
I don't want to get into an argument with you or anyone else about this, but I think a lot of your "one time" mailers are forgetting that if you get over 200 UCEs per day (as I often do), now throw in these ~quarterly virus email barrages (Melissa, Love Bug, Klez, SoBig, Swen, etc.) We really don't want more email.
I get "targeted, one time mailings" all the time: Offers for cheap website design at my website design site's contact email; chances to advertise my vacation home sent to the contact email on my travel guide site that advertises, among other things, vacation rentals; My cyber cafe website's email just got an email today inviting me to sign up for a free booth in the Foods, Crops and Beverages in the UK... That's just the tip of the iceberg, frankly.
I am sorry, but if I get bulk UCE, even "targeted" mail, guess what, I will file a complaint.
If Joe Webmaster from Website X sends me an email and says "Hey, Patrick, I notice that you sell red widgets, would you be interested in partnering with me to sell my widget buffers through your site?" I would either respond yes or no - that is not an example of bulk UCE.
However, the person who started this thread suggested a one off for a sports website asking people to sign up for a free membership - sorry, that would immediately get reported as a UCE by me.
What makes "sports" UCE any better than "viagra" or "mortgages"?
Commercial email accounts are not covered under this law. I am in the US and just reading the press releases so get legal advice prior to emailing. I don't see how an emailer could tell the difference between personal and commercial accounts with any certainty.
This law also places restrictions on the use of cookies unless the user knows they are being used and can selectively stop their use.
The law will do little but change the locale of the emailers so the spammers will originate the email from somewhere outside the EU and thumb their noses at the government censors. The law does not hold the advertisers culpable only the actual emailer as far as I know.
However, the person who started this thread suggested a one off for a sports website asking people to sign up for a free membership - sorry, that would immediately get reported as a UCE by me.
Fine, you would be offended, but there are other people who might be interested in such a website and would be grateful that the message was received.
When I am at a trade show selling my product, I stand front and center and stick a brochure into people's hands whether they stop at the booth or not.
Sometimes they say "No Thank you" and I keep the brochure, sometimes they get offended, and sometimes they actually stop and look at the booth. When they look, they may or may not buy, but now they know I exist. The ones that do buy thank me for stopping them.
People exist in a vacuum and don't know what is available to them. That's why advertising and marketing people get paid so much money - they bring the message to people who otherwise would not have seen it.
Is UCE annoying? absolutely! Do I wish it would unclutter my email box? Yes. I get the hundred viagra/mortgage/enhacement mails just like everyone else. But in that I also get announcements from IBM or Java and other UCE who got my email address from somewhere else.
I just deal with it and don't whine about it and certainly don't try to make blanket laws banning all sorts of commercial advertising.
Rather than pass silly laws like that, we should promote ways to avoid getting spam in the first place.
1) Keep your personal email private - only give it to people who you know and trust.
2) If you want to signup for newsletters or register at websites, use a generic hotmail/yahoo address, and let that get filled up with junk.
3) if all you have is a hotmail/yahoo address for your personal email, you might as well have a partyline telephone. Pay for a private email address with a reputable ISP.
4) My personal email address is relatively spam-free. Some junk still creeps in. I don't post it on forums, I don't use it in my public profiles.
5) If you're still overloaded, think about getting a new address. Your ISP will gladly help you do this. It's just like changing a cell phone number, or switching to an unlisted number.
6) Don't post your email address on a webpage. It will be read by harvesters. Use javascript or server side script to break the address into parts, or just display your address as "myname at mydomain.com" and let your users figure it out. Most people understand to put the "@" character in an email address these days.
And don't whine about "why should I have to change my practices instead of the spammers?" You are responsible for what you do, not for what anyone else does. It's not happening TO YOU. You're allowing it to happen to you.
All I can say is play by the rules - if a company sends out bulk UCEs and someone like me reports it, and as a result their ISP or webhost cuts off their account, that isn't my problem - that's theirs - they didn't follow the terms of service agreement outlined by their Internet providers.
So, to use your phrase, companies shouldn't "whine" when their accounts get shut down. Why should I have to receive bulk UCEs from companies that are violating the terms of service outlined by their ISPs and web hosts?
Why should I have to change my practices because of bulk emailers choice to attempt to capitalize by violating the rules.
As a matter of fact, I use JS to mask my email and I also encode them with unicode. However, I cannot mask my email with my domain name registrars (without paying for a masking service).
Paying for masking = extra cost. I manage over 100 domains. So how much will these "harmless" one off emails going to cost me to avoid, exactly?
- if a company sends out bulk UCEs and someone like me reports it, and as a result their ISP or webhost cuts off their account, that isn't my problem -
All this will do is stop the legitimate companies from sending email. Do you honestly think that the viagras,enhancements,stop debt, etc. emails are traceable to ISPs? If they were, they would have been shut down first.
Unless there is a rash of complaints to the ISP, one individual will not cause my business to be shut down. Whenever I make bulk mailings I preface the information with the disclaimer as to WHO it is being sent to and HOW to have their names removed from MY list (not the list where I first found their name). Then I begin the information.
I get some responses to REMOVE, I get many more people interested in looking at what I have to offer because I offer something of value to them. Most will delete it without opening it. It's no different than bulk regular mail.
Commercial email has been a successful marketing tool for me and I plan on continue using it for as long as I can.
And don't whine about "why should I have to change my practices instead of the spammers?"You posted a laundry list of techniques that we all can use to avoid spam, we've all seen these suggestions.
But why do we need these techniques? Why should we need to protect ourselves at all? So spammers can continue to profit? And profit by using bandwidth that end users pay for? Just because a means of communication exists does that entitle anyone who chooses to use it to advertise?
txbakers, this WILL turn into an argument if you continue to try to defend UCE. The sheer volume of UCE has ruined the party for everyone, regardless of what they send or how often they send it. I believe most Internet users view UCE as akin to telemarketing, and I'm confident it will be dealt with similarly soon.
I agree with txbakers way of thinking.
PatrickDeese wote >>
However, the person who started this thread suggested a one off for a sports website asking people to sign up for a free membership - sorry, that would immediately get reported as a UCE by me.
What makes "sports" UCE any better than "viagra" or "mortgages"?
----------------------------------
The difference is, the offer is to get you listing within a directory/Portal for FREE, not to buy viagra!
Why on earth would you want to report this as a UCE? - Its like saying No I dont want you to advertise my site in the local paper for free and give me lots of potential customers, go away or i will report you.(hmmm strange way to success if you ignore opportunities like these)
I take every bit of free advertising i can possibly get, so please spam me with 10,000 of these free individual one off email offers and i will spend my whole week replying to be accepted for each one. I think you would be crazy not to.
anyway thanks for all the comments
I misunderstood your post -
emails sent to sports shops asking them to sign up on a directory/portal for sports shops/equipment for free
I misunderstood this to be an email requesting that people sign up to get a free membership on a sports equipment portal, not a request from a directory style website that people could add their own websites/info to it.
I am sorry about that. You are right, I would not consider that UCE. If I had a sporting goods / sports related website I would most likely appreciate the invitation.
You win.
While Andrew's mission is noble, offering a free announcement or listing to stores, it's still unsolicited, it's still commercial, it's still taking up space in my box.
Whether or not it's asking for money doesn't make it any different. It still takes up space in my inbox that I've paid for, and (hypothetically now) I'm very pleased with my business so far, and I don't need every little sports related portal to contact me asking for a listing.
Now that I've argued the opposite side (and I could probably drive me to tears with arguments against UCE...)the only thing I'll concede in this discussion is that it's a wicked issue to resolve.
If I email 10,000 teachers with a link to a free resource site, isn't that the same thing as asking sporting good stores to list for free?
Tough, tough issue to resolve. All I know is that it works for me, and I will continue to do it until prohibited by law.
Maynard.
I buy a new car and park it in front of my house. The birds in the trees start to poop on it. Should I park somewhere else, should I chop down the tree, should I contact my congressman and have bird outlawed?
I get internet access and start to use it in my house. Spammers fill my inbox with crap. Should I change my email address, should I start using a yahoo account, should I contact my congressman and have email outlawed?
You own a house in a residential neighborhood. A short while later, your next door neighbors, instead of taking their garbage to the curb, dump the garbage onto your lawn. Even though you know they are doing it, they claim they aren't.
Should you:
a) put up with it / try to ignore it, since it only takes a few minutes to pick it up every day.
b) move to a new neighborhood and hope that the bad neighbors don't track you down.
c) build a higher fence so that less garbage gets thrown onto your lawn.
c) dump your garbage onto another neighbors lawn, since everyone else is doing it and it saves you time (ie it is cost effective).
d) contact the neighborhood association / police to resolve the matter.
I buy a house in a neighbourhood.
I get people of all sorts just walking in my door trying to sell me stuff. Note, they're not ringing the doorbell, not knocking, just walking in because I live in Canada and don't lock my doors when I'm at home.
If I tell them no, they go away immediately, but there's no gaurantee they won't be back tomorrow and walk in and start selling me stuff.
what can I do? I guess the only thing I can do is admit that the world is changing for the worse and start locking my doors. The thing is, I shouldn't have to. It's my damn house.
<side note>
If I were in Texas, locked door or no, I could probably shoot those whackos. Texans correct me if I'm wrong.
</side note>
<edit>eye kan't speel</edit>
The directory in question that would be asking you to add your site would presumably get your contact information in one of these ways:
- From a "contact us" page
- From domain whois
Case 1: "Contact Us" Page
:: The intelligent sports directory would manually visit a sports website, and navigate to the contact us page. There they should evaluate the appropriateness of sending an email regarding their directory:
- Say the contact page lists sales@ ("potential customers can ask us questions") and support@ ("current customers can get support") ... they it would not be appropriate for the sports directory to contact the sports site.
- If, on the other hand, there is a third email address general@ ("general inquiries") or pr@ ("business relations") or perhaps even webmaster@ ("contact the webmaster" but not "report bugs to the webmaster") then it would be more appropriate.
This sets up a system of ettiquete for targetted, semi-personal offers such as the one we are discussing. If the site is inviting in terms of contact such as this, fine. Otherwise, the site should be left alone by the directory. Even further, if a webmaster was bothered by offers like this, they could state on the contact page, "Please do not send emails that offer your service" or whatever. Then, if the directory manually or harvestingly gets an email address off the contact page an emails you, you have a stronger case in complaining about it as "spam".
Case 2: Whois
- I do not think it would be appropriate for the sports directory to contact based on the whois record. Basically, all contact should be done through the site ("case 1") rather than in this way.
You make a point, but it is only valid if implementing the measures you implied (like specifying fair use of posted emails) would stop UCE'ers from UCE'ing.
I seriously doubt that it would.
