Welcome to WebmasterWorld Guest from 35.175.191.168

Forum Moderators: open

Message Too Old, No Replies

VW In Trouble Over "Adjusting" Vehicle Emissions at Testing in US

     
11:20 am on Sep 22, 2015 (gmt 0)

Administrator from GB 

WebmasterWorld Administrator engine is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:May 9, 2000
posts:26375
votes: 1036


The US authorities have picked up on a way VW has been "adjusting" Diesel vehicle emissions to rig them so they show a lower level of pollution at testing.

Once tested, the vehicle would revert back to higher levels of emission when the driver took them back out on the road.

What they thought they were doing in setting it this way is completely beyond me.

VW's share price has dropped over 20%, equating to about €14 billion dollars, and there's the potential for fines running into of billions of dollars.

Not only will the US market be questioning VWs claims, but other markets will be concerned that it has the same problem.

This will go down as a classic way to destroy a reputation in a matter of hours.

More info [bbc.co.uk...]
11:52 am on Sept 22, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from FR 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member leosghost is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Feb 15, 2004
posts:7139
votes: 412


I would imagine that Jason Statham is relieved to no longer be their "poster guy"..


Sooty may be a more appropriate "mascot"..
11:58 am on Sept 22, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from US 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Apr 27, 2001
posts:12172
votes: 61


During normal driving, the cars with the software -- known as a “defeat device” -- would pollute 10 times to 40 times the legal limits, the EPA estimated.

Unbelievable that a company would even attempt something like this. They had to have known that someone, somewhere, would discover the software.

Volkswagen Drops 23% After Admitting Diesel Emissions Cheat
[bloomberg.com...]

Analysts at Kepler Cheuvreux cut their recommendation on Volkswagen stock to hold from buy, reducing their target price 27 percent to 185 euros.
12:10 pm on Sept 22, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from FR 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member leosghost is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Feb 15, 2004
posts:7139
votes: 412


“This latest saga may help catalyze further management changes at VW,” Ellinghorst wrote in a note Monday.

Well played Sir ..well played..;)

edit..The figure is now at 11 million vehicles worldwide..
[lepoint.fr...]

English language coverage of story at Yahoo..
[news.yahoo.com...]
12:25 pm on Sept 22, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from US 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Apr 27, 2001
posts:12172
votes: 61


This VW Diesel Scandal Is Much Worse Than a Recall
[popularmechanics.com...]

Right now dealers are banned from selling 2.0-liter TDIs, which make up about a quarter of VW's U.S. sales.
3:08 pm on Sept 22, 2015 (gmt 0)

Administrator from GB 

WebmasterWorld Administrator engine is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:May 9, 2000
posts:26375
votes: 1036


NOx emissions are the real nasty ones, followed by CO2, and it's NOx that is way above the standards laid down.
What do you do if you have one of these vehicles? I don't believe there's a repair that can be retrofitted, so this is a disaster for owners. Is it legal to drive now that it's known to fail the test? In any case, do you want to drive a polluting vehicle, and if not, who is going to buy it from you?

What do you think about all the other manufacturers coming under the spotlight? Are they doing the same thing, or are their engines better?

This is a very big mess, and I can see VW being in big trouble over this, both from a financial point of view, and its credibility.
3:19 pm on Sept 22, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from US 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Apr 27, 2001
posts:12172
votes: 61


In any case, do you want to drive a polluting vehicle, and if not, who is going to buy it from you?

Interesting question. In California, they have $0 resale value.

The Volkswagen Diesel Emissions Scandal, By the Numbers
[time.com...]

$0 Current resale value of affected cars in California, because the cars were sold as “non-compliant” (and therefore cannot be resold).
10:40 am on Sept 23, 2015 (gmt 0)

Preferred Member

5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Sept 12, 2014
posts:384
votes: 68


Wait till they do the research on the rigged milage per gallon stats.
11:13 am on Sept 23, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from US 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Apr 27, 2001
posts:12172
votes: 61


Volkswagen Emissions Scandal Relates to 11 Million Cars
[wsj.com...]

Volkswagen AG ’s emissions crisis deepened on Tuesday as the company revealed as many as 11 million vehicles world-wide contain the software allegedly used to cheat emissions tests and disclosed it would take a €6.5 billion ($7.27 billion) charge to earnings and cut its full-year outlook.

Initially the EPA estimated 500k vehicles. That number just climbed to 11m.
11:25 am on Sept 23, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from FR 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member leosghost is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Feb 15, 2004
posts:7139
votes: 412


I mentioned that..11 million cars ..up there..yesterday ..;)
11:29 am on Sept 23, 2015 (gmt 0)

Administrator from GB 

WebmasterWorld Administrator engine is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:May 9, 2000
posts:26375
votes: 1036


We also have to think of it as 11 million drivers with worthless vehicles - they cannot sell it to get a new vehicle. I can see VW having to pay for that, too. If they don't it'll be a class action, i'm sure.
1:48 pm on Sept 23, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from US 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Apr 27, 2001
posts:12172
votes: 61


I mentioned that..11 million cars ..up there..yesterday.

I "glazed" right over that, my apologies. Is it possible I read it before your edit? Hey, that rhymes! :)

VW Scandal Caused Nearly 1m Tonnes of Extra Pollution
[theguardian.com...]

Volkswagen’s rigging of emissions tests for 11m cars means they may be responsible for nearly 1m tonnes of air pollution every year, roughly the same as the UK’s combined emissions for all power stations, vehicles, industry and agriculture, a Guardian analysis suggests.
12:52 pm on Sept 24, 2015 (gmt 0)

Junior Member

5+ Year Member

joined:Aug 17, 2010
posts: 188
votes: 2


I wonder if they will come out with out with an ECU update that will have the current cars perform at the levels they were tested at. They will likely be sluggish to drive in comparison though.
1:24 pm on Sept 24, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from US 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Apr 27, 2001
posts:12172
votes: 61


Meet the Man Who Uncovered Volkswagen's Lie
[cnbc.com...]

Carder's team—a research professor, two graduate students, a faculty member and himself— performed road tests around Los Angeles and up the West Coast to Seattle that generated results so pronounced that they initially suspected a problem with their own research.

rwilson: I wonder if they will come out with out with an ECU update that will have the current cars perform at the levels they were tested at.

According to the researchers who performed the study...

It can simply be a change in the fuel injection strategy. What might be realized is a penalty in fuel economy in order to get these systems more active, to lower the emissions levels.
6:23 pm on Sept 24, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from US 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Oct 5, 2012
posts:953
votes: 205


Honestly I can not believe that they got away with it for as long as they did. There had to be several people involved in development of this cheat. Surely dealership mechanics must have had some information about the mechanism/software. Not a whistle blower in the bunch, I just can't believe it.
6:58 pm on Sept 24, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from US 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Apr 27, 2001
posts:12172
votes: 61


Shepherd: Honestly I can not believe that they got away with it for as long as they did.

According to the above article...

Carder said he's surprised to see such a hullabaloo now, because his team's findings were made public nearly a year and a half ago. "We actually presented this data in a public forum and were actually questioned by Volkswagen," said Carder.

The cat was out of the bag a year and half ago. It took this long to take action. Meanwhile, there have been 11m vehicles that have been out there contributing to Global Warming. Can we blow that stuff back over Germany or something?
7:01 pm on Sept 24, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from US 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member lawman is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:May 28, 2001
posts:3615
votes: 75


11 million others contributing to global warming? Now I don't feel so bad about my contribution.
7:44 pm on Sept 24, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from US 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Oct 5, 2012
posts:953
votes: 205


The cat was out of the bag a year and half ago.


2009, first model year to do this so it was probably in development in 2007. So 8 years ago somebody, likely many somebodies, developed this method of cheating the emissions testing and all this time none of them had a conscience, unreal.
8:03 pm on Sept 24, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from FR 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member leosghost is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Feb 15, 2004
posts:7139
votes: 412


People with a conscience very rarely get into the C-Suite of any company, still less of any multinational..unless they are bringing in the coffee to those who are sitting in the leather chairs around the table..
12:10 am on Sept 25, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from US 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Oct 5, 2012
posts:953
votes: 205


That's true, but I doubt that anyone in the c-suite had anything to do with writing the code or making this thing work.
1:22 am on Sept 25, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from FR 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member leosghost is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Feb 15, 2004
posts:7139
votes: 412


Nope , but I can't see it having been planned or implemented without C -suite signing off on it, or suggesting it..

I think ( as do many, from what I have read in the European press ) that it probably began as a way to show better MPG / LPKm figures..and may not have initially been about emissions..( that the emissions figures potential was seen may have been seen by the original architects of it as a "happy" accident on the way to low fuel consumption figures..

I have never found it hard to get really good consumption figures from Diesel engines, you don't have to drive like a Great Great Grandma..You just need to anticipate what the others are likely to do and be aware of potential hazards..

Beginning by riding motorcycles helps..either you learn to read the road and the situation, and be aware of potential hazards..or you wind up dead or injured badly..With any vehicle you can get great mileage, and can still be moving along well, without having to keep standing on the brakes ( unless you are racing for real..or "against the clock"..Hi Mike ;)..But, I also prefer "stick shift" to any "autos", I have all the common licences including trucks with articulated trailers ..and some weird ones like large fork lifts and stuff , they can be "hairy"..as can a lot of construction vehicles..

I wonder what the emission figures are on a back hoe ;)..What would they be if VW made one..
1:33 pm on Sept 25, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from US 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Apr 27, 2001
posts:12172
votes: 61


Theory: VW is not the only one to have a Defeat Device.

Now that this has all come to light, you can be assured that EVERY vehicle coming into the United States will now be under greater scrutiny. Not to mention the ones that are already here. If VW was able to get away with this for as long as they have, how many others are doing it?
3:14 pm on Sept 25, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from FR 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member leosghost is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Feb 15, 2004
posts:7139
votes: 412


Our minister of ecology ..Segolene Royal ex girlfriend of Francois Hollande ( our current Pres' ) and "not married" mother of his 4 kids <= Yes folks , this is France..anyone remember "Soap" from TV..?
She announced yesterday that Renault and "Pug Citroen" had assured her that they were "clean" and "not cheating"..

But, that "in the interests of fairness", she was instigating "spot checks" road side by the Gendarmerie National ( one of our "police" forces mainly based outside of cities and towns )..of ( to begin with ) 100 vehicles at random..to see if they are "in conformity"..That is not just VW models..

Our media think it is a great idea..They think anything our current government / pres does is a great idea..

Our Gendarmes..I'm friendly with many at all ranks ..think she is an impolite word..

No one appears to have thought of the parents who may be going to pick up their small children from outside the school gates, and won't get there ..Small kids ( 5 or 6 or 7 etc , even here ..do not have cell phones with them when they go to school )..so there will be many tears when Mom or Dad doesn't show..or heaven forbid maybe even some abductions of kids by those who hang around outside of kids schools waiting to run the "your Mom is running late, she sent me to pick you up" ..

Grandstanding politicians ( all sides ) never miss an opportunity to " be scandalised" and then to " compound the optimess"...

I know 5 people in my small Breton village who now own what are, to all intents and purposes "scrap cars"..VW models that are known to have this "issue" in other markets ..

This could knock on and spark another dip back into the depths of recession..if VW and others take a financial hit this big ( and maybe bigger is too come ) they will also affect the insurers, the finance houses, the banks, the other car makers, consumer confidence..everything except the Amish..
3:17 pm on Sept 25, 2015 (gmt 0)

Administrator from GB 

WebmasterWorld Administrator engine is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:May 9, 2000
posts:26375
votes: 1036


The cat was out of the bag a year and half ago. It took this long to take action.


What! I find that rather odd, and if that's the case, the regulators have something to answer, too.

Fuel consumption (MPG/KPH) is the most valuable measure for drivers, and pollution is usually a measure relevant to the authorities, although drivers often make decision based on how little/much pollution is generated.

Urea is a substance that other Diesel engine manufacturers use to convert NOx into less harmful substances, but VW doesn't rely on that technology, as I understand it. So if a VW doesn't have a suitable sized tank for the urea it'll require significant modification, which may prove impossible. Alternatively, a VW Diesel engine will have to be de-tuned in other ways which will reduce the power, performance, efficiency and pollution from the engine.

What's clear is that all manufactures are coming under the spotlight, along with the performance and MPG specifications quoted by all manufacturers is starting to come under scrutiny across the globe.

Non-diesel cars ought to get a boost from this, and perhaps, other technologies. Obviously, there's petrol/gasoline, hybrid and battery-powered vehicles, and there's even hydrogen vehicles available to buy, although you'd be challenged to afford to buy the Hydrogen-powered vehicle in the first place, at today's prices, and then to find refilling stations.

This VW issue is certainly making more people aware of the issues of personal transportation.

There's more to come out on this, i'm sure.
12:02 pm on Sept 26, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from US 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Apr 27, 2001
posts:12172
votes: 61


What You Need to Know About the Volkswagen Emissions-Rigging Scandal
[latimes.com...]

Is the EPA checking other VW diesel engines and those of other automakers for emissions discrepancies?

The EPA is partnering with the California Air Resources Board and Environment Canada to conduct more tests of every make and model diesel light truck and car sold in the U.S. and Canada. They will use portable equipment to measure real-life emissions as the vehicles are driven on open roads.
12:49 pm on Sept 26, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from FR 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member leosghost is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Feb 15, 2004
posts:7139
votes: 412


According to Inovev ( auto-mobile industry analysis body..advises and provides statistics to the auto industry worldwide on) report ..quoted in France yesterday..
We may have over a million VW group vehicles in France alone that are affected by this..
Apologies.. I don't have a link in English..but the quoted paragraph should be self explanatory even in you don't read French..
[lepoint.fr...]

From the article in le point..
les moteurs incriminés, de type EA189, concerneraient 1 068 796 véhicules en France.
Un chiffre considérable qui représente, s'il est avéré, 2,6 % de l'ensemble des véhicules en circulation en France (1). En effet, le moteur diesel de quatre cylindres TDI de type EA189 équipe une trentaine de modèles du groupe allemand commercialisés dans l'Hexagone. Et parmi les 1 068 796 véhicules potentiellement touchés, près de deux tiers (59,6 % soit 637 489 véhicules) sont des modèles Volkswagen, essentiellement des Golf et des Polo. Les autres se répartissent entre Audi (21,1 %, soit 225 571 véhicules) - modèle A3 en grande partie -, Seat (10,4 %, soit 111 681 véhicules) et Sköda (8,8 %, soit 94 055 véhicules).
3:58 pm on Sept 26, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from US 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Apr 27, 2001
posts:12172
votes: 61


Drove by the local VW Dealership yesterday, could have sworn I saw a huge banner that read...

No Money Down and No Payments!
1:26 pm on Sept 27, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from US 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Apr 27, 2001
posts:12172
votes: 61


Okay, back to the seriousness of it all...

VW Scandal: Company Warned Over Test Cheating Years Ago
[bbc.com...]

A Volkswagen engineer warned the company about cheating over its emission tests as early 2011, a German newspaper reports. Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung says the warning emerged during VW's current investigation into the scandal. Separately, Bild am Sonntag said the internal inquiry had found that parts supplier Bosch had warned Volkswagen not to use its software illegally.
1:48 pm on Sept 27, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from US 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member tangor is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Nov 29, 2005
posts:10469
votes: 1099


CO2 is an invented danger. NOXx is a real danger. Diesel is a fossil fuel that most hippies, er, global warmists think is better than gasoline, yet, ordinary physics (known for at least 159 years) know is incorrect.

In the political chase for transportation that is "green" via fossil fuel an absurdity has occurred. No CO2, yet have performance, speed and ability on the road. And in countries were sweet crude is not the oil out of the ground (think Eurasia), some fudging is bound to happen because diesel is used. There's a trade off in combustion rates, energy conversion, and residue. For small engines (like VW) that relates to poor mileage and performance. Burned correctly, however, emitting all the NOXx as a result, it's a pretty good engine!

I am not championing anything, just looking at the science of combustion for transportation purposes.... and can see how VW, to meet consumer expectations of mpg that the fudge was made. After all, the vehicle would be underpowered, slow to performance, and otherwise lack luster if fully NOXx compliant.

We live in an upside down world from time to time.
1:08 pm on Sept 28, 2015 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from US 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Apr 27, 2001
posts:12172
votes: 61


German Prosecutors Open Investigation into VW's Winterkorn
[bloomberg.com...]

Volkswagen tumbled as much as 8.2 percent on Monday in Frankfurt, taking its drop since the diesel cheating became public on Sept. 18 to 39 percent.

Audi Says 2.1 Million Cars Have Cheat Emissions Software
[bbc.com...]

Affected models include the A1, A3, A4, A5, A6, TT, Q3 and Q5, a spokesman told the Reuters news agency.
This 32 message thread spans 2 pages: 32