How would you handle this (part 2)?

[olimits7]

Hi,

Not having a good week; now with this other order I checked online and I have a delivery confirmation and signature for this order.

The customer used PayPal to pay for the order and I authorized the transaction at the time he placed the order and then captured the funds when I shipped the item.

Now a week later after he received the item I get a reversal on PayPal for his order amount, and PayPal says it's due to unauthorized transaction. Also, since the seller protection was only "partially eligible" PayPal can't do anything on their end to retrieve the funds back.

I emailed the customer and told him about this reversal and he responded right away and said that he lost his debit card and he had his bank reverse the latest transactions listed because they were fraudulent. He said that my transaction was reversed by accident, and that he would re-submit the payment right away. That was 2 days ago and I still haven't heard back from this customer.

I don't know how I should handle this at this point now...any suggestions?

This is an international order for me that was delivered into the UK; so I don't know if it's possible to get the police involved or not?

Also, I asked PayPal if there is a way that I can successfully authorize orders that are to only "confirmed" addresses through their API using "ReqConfirmShipping" but I think this only works for US addresses.

Thank you,

olimits7

[Propools]

Does PayPal not have a "Chargeback Dispute" function? I know with our CC vendor, we do. I'm not sure if PayPal does or not, but I would start there.
Try logging into PayPal and starting here [paypal.com]?

[jwolthuis]

Regarding their API, you can require confirmed addresses, but that doesn't prevent orders that are "partially eligible" for Seller Protection. If they are funding their PayPal account from a bank account, the transaction hinges on the bank account funds.

The issue is that the banks routinely say "Approved" one day, then "Denied" 3 days later. PayPal is simply the middleman, so they cover themselves with the "partially eligible" clause.

For "partially eligible" payments, we look at the size of the order. For low-value orders, we don't sweat it. For high-value orders, we sit on them for a week (due to a temporary out-of-stock situation), to wait out a possible reversal.

I would send your customer a PayPal invoice, and give them 3 days to make this right.

On the third day, I'd inform them that your next call is to the <insert town name> Police, as he is in illegal possession of your property, and to expect a knock on his door to retrieve the item(s).

[mrblond]

I'd inform them that your next call is to the <insert town name> Police, as he is in illegal possession of your property, and to expect a knock on his door to retrieve the item(s).

I don't think this is possible. Might be a good scare tactic, but if the scammer is good, he knows it's probably BS.

[jwolthuis]

Right, it's a scare tactic. I wasn't suggesting calling the police, just tell them you are. No one wants a knock on their door from a uniformed officer.

[jecasc]

I'd send a payment reminder - not by email but by normal mail, set a fixed date until the payment should be payed and tell the customer that I would pass on the collection of the debt to a debt collection agency if the debt is not payed and also get the police involved.

If the payment would not arrive I would search a debt collection agency in the UK online and then let them try to collect the payment. Some of them work for commission, so if they do not collect you do not pay.

[olimits7]

Ok, thank you!

I sent over a PayPal invoice this way it is coming directly from PayPal instead of waiting on him to send me the payment.

I know this is not a fraud order; I did some research online and everything ties to this being a valid order, so basically he has just "stolen" my merchandise.

If I don't hear a response from him towards the PayPal invoice, I'll try looking for a UK debt collection agency to see if they can help me out. I don't mind paying a commission, as long as this guy doesn't get away for not paying for the merchandise.

Also, has anyone ever tried to get the police involved internationally with success?

I feel like since I'm from the US that I won't be able to make much headway trying to contact his local UK police department.

Thank you,

olimits7

[Demaestro]

he lost his debit card and he had his bank reverse the latest transactions listed because they were fraudulent

I call BS on this. Unless his PIN was taped to his card when he lost it then there wouldn't be unauthorized charges because you need the pin to use the card.

[HRoth]

No, he said that the transaction was canceled by accident by the bank, not that he disputed the transaction. He admits he made the transaction, according to the OP. This has happened to me, and the customer did pay and was not trying to rip me off. She had a terrible time getting her bank to pay it and finally sent me a money order (it was not through Paypal).

I would not be talking about contacting the police. That's overkill. Wait to let him respond to the payment request through Paypal. If he doesn't pay in X amount of days, send him a followup email or give him a call by phone. They have phones in other countries.

[olimits7]

haha...ok, I'll wait a certain amount of days to see if he responds and then follow up with him by email/phone.

[jecasc]

I feel like since I'm from the US that I won't be able to make much headway trying to contact his local UK police department.

Try it as last resort. All you have to do is state your case and send the evidence. Since most police are online nowadays this is not a big deal.

Worst thing that can happen is that they are not interested.

See the time you spend on this case as investment - since it will provide you with experience and lets you handle future cases more easily.

There are many merchants out there who always say it is not worth to spend the time to collect small claims or go to the police, to much hassle. But they forget that if you have done it once the second time will just be routine.

[SilverShine]

"No, he said that the transaction was canceled by accident by the bank, not that he disputed the transaction."

Its funny how there's always some kind of error made by a "customer's" financial institution AND during investigation after some kind of fraud/unauthorized access/card use when the "customer" has just done some shopping online.

[jwolthuis]

Its funny how there's always some kind of error made by a "customer's" financial institution AND during investigation after some kind of fraud/unauthorized access/card use when the "customer" has just done some shopping online.

I don't see the irony.

(a) Customer shops online, using his debit card.
(b) The next day or two, the customer loses his debit card, and calls the bank.
(c) Bank can't tell legit activity from illegit, so reverses all pending transactions, including the OP's transaction.

Seems logical to me...

[olimits7]

END RESULT:

I ended up sending the customer a PayPal invoice and he told me he was having trouble accessing his PayPal account; which I can understand because I've also had issues with PayPal in the past.

Anyway, today he paid the PayPal invoice I sent him; very glad that this customer kept his word on this and everything worked out! :-)

[wheel]

Make sure you open a paypal dispute prior to their deadline for opening a dispute. You've got an email from them saying the charge is valid. The one time I had a paypal dispute, having an email like this turned the tables and I got my money.

My initial emails with the guy were over a phone I'd returned. He kept delaying me, hoping to get past the paypal date to file a dispute. After the dispute was opened, he played a lot of shenanigans, and paypal was siding with him - until I produced an email from him showing he had my money and my phone. I got my money back immediately.

[SilverShine]

I don't see the irony.

(a) Customer shops online, using his debit card.
(b) The next day or two, the customer loses his debit card, and calls the bank.
(c) Bank can't tell legit activity from illegit, so reverses all pending transactions, including the OP's transaction.

Seems logical to me...

There's no irony, just a high level of co-incidence of people shopping online with some form of payment difficulty and who then report "unauthorized bank account access" or "loss" of their bank/credit card with the ensuing difficulties.

Banks ask their customers with a lost card problem which transactions are legitamate so the bank doesn't have to reverse all transactions, which is a daft thing to do anyway as it creates a multitude of issues with all the innocent merchants.

[Essex_boy]

If your going to phone him DO NOT call him more than 3 times a day - Harassment problems may ensue if your not careful. Try calling early in teh morning and wake him up...

[Demaestro]

I am glad he paid but the story still seems fishy to me.

Losing your bank card isn't like losing your credit card.

Where I live if you loose your bank card and someone uses it you are typically held responsible for the charges as the follow up question from the bank is.....

"How did they get your pin on the first try?"

[HRoth]

You don't need a PIN to use a debit card online. I have never seen it. PIN is only for card-present swipes in brick-and-mortar stores. And a lot of debit cards these days can be processed as a credit card in a brick-and-mortar shop as well. The only time you have to have a PIN is when you are getting money back. I use my debit card as a credit card at the gas station all the time so they don't authorize a ridiculous amount. This story seems very believable to me, because I have had customers who have experienced it, and I myself have seen my debit card--that's right, DEBIT CARD--number ripped off more than five times, most likely from payment gateways incursions, the big secret no one wants to talk about. I check my bank account every day, so I would see pending charges almost invariably from that idiotune store. Then I have to call the bank and they have to cancel the card. Any transaction that is captured after the bank cancels the card does not get paid.

[Demaestro]

I am in Canada and if you use your bank card you have to use a PIN. Online you have to use your banking login info. You can't use your bank card without it anywhere here. Interesting that you don't in the US.

Once I read the guy paid up I knew it couldn't be a scam but it just seemed strange that no mention of the PIN was made.

It seems backwards that you need a PIN to add money to the card holder's account, but you don't to remove money from the card holder's account.

[bwnbwn]

I require a pin number for orders. Doesn't seem to have slowed down the fraud orders either. Lots of places I have ordered from require a pin number. It is still charged as a CC though. Only place it can be used as a debit is in person at a business and you select the debit option.

[bakedjake]

You don't need a PIN to use a debit card online.

Yes, in some places you do, like Canada, where most debit (bank card) transactions are not handled on the traditional payment processing networks. You actually need to login to your bank account to pay with Interac online.

That is slowly changing. A few credit unions and one of the big banks have introduced Debit MC/Visa cards.

Interesting that you don't in the US.

In the US the vast majority of debit transactions are processed over the Visa/MC network. The debit card you get from a US bank has a 16 digit number, and MC/Visa logo, and for all intents and purposes is a Visa/MC card, and can be used for card-not-present transactions just like any other Visa/MC card. Just because a card has a Visa or a MasterCard logo doesn't mean it's necessarily a credit card. It could be a debit card, a prepaid card, a gift card, a corporate expense management program card, etc. That is the case worldwide.

IMHO, in Canada Interac will be going the way of the dodo here as well - CIBC has already introduced hybrid Interac/Visa debit cards, and frankly, Visa/MC debit are far more useful to consumers as they have nearly universal acceptance. Merchants hate them though, because they pay the prevailing MC/Visa fee instead of the Interac fee, and the banks (which own Interac) hate them because they have to cut Visa/MC in for a percentage.

As a cross-border merchant with warehouses in both US and Canada, I do accept US debit cards (because they're just regular Visa/MC cards to me), but not Interac, because you have to bounce to a third party site to authenticate the transaction.

In reality, no one should be using their debit card for online transactions, because the money is immediately gone and you have to get it back in the case of fraud as opposed to a credit card where you simply don't pay the fraudulent charges.

I require a pin number for orders.

Unless I'm mistaken, you cannot ask for a PIN number for card-not-present Visa/MC orders. Check your merchant agreement.

Note I'm talking about an actual PIN, not a CVV code.

[dpd1]

I figured it was probably legit, because most crooks aren't going to waste time talking to you promptly. They do the deed and move on.

I've never been asked for a PIN on orders for myself. Honestly, I would not go through with an order if a site asked for that.

[HRoth]

Re debit cards online and fraud, the times my card has been used fraudulently, I have not had to pay any of the charges, no evil eye, even when they were thousands of dollars. I believe that is because I do check my account every morning and often several times a day, and any pending charge that is unusual I call the bank immediately. If you leave off checking your account until you get your paper statement, I imagine it would be a different story. However, I do have plenty of customers who use gift cards because they are worried about numbers being ripped off.