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turning someone in for fraud attempt

I have a fraud attempt in progress...

         

fabulousyarn

12:04 am on Jun 24, 2010 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Does anyone know who/how I should report them - one of those if you bill the shipping charges to my shipper then ship the order I'll pay you a commission etc....

I want to turn them in - I have contact info, communications, email, phone, etc....any suggestions?

jdMorgan

12:07 am on Jun 24, 2010 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



A Google search on "report online fraud" seems to turn up some useful .gov links in the top positions.

Jim

MrHard

12:28 am on Jun 24, 2010 (gmt 0)



Does it show up on the "wonder wheel"?

fabulousyarn

2:11 am on Jun 24, 2010 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Whats the wonder wheel? I thought perhaps since others have experienced this I might get some direct links..tks

Judy

tangor

3:43 am on Jun 24, 2010 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



A report of attempted theft will be served green jell-o by law enforcement. Your response to attempted theft is to not be a party to same (ie. gullible merchant scammed by obvious fraudster). Simply ignore the attempt (don't send product and later regret it!). Reporting the attempt will only waste your time. Pitch it in the bin and continue...

Rinse and repeat... as this krap will not go away...

jecasc

8:07 am on Jun 24, 2010 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Simply ignore the attempt

I do not agree: I have done that in the past only fall for the same fraudster in a moment of inattentiveness a year later.

Report the matter either to your local police or on this website (if you are in the US):

[ic3.gov...]

I have begun to report any frauds and fraud attempts without expeption about two years ago and several convictions have been the result. You should ask however to be informed about the result of the investigation - if this is possible in your jurisdiction. I did not do that and got frustrated because I thought the police did not do anything - the typical "I reported and never heard from them again" experience. Until I found out that here in Germany you are not informed of the result of the investigation if you do not explicitly ask to be kept informed. Especially when they do not need a testimony or further evidence for the conviction.

BeeDeeDubbleU

8:19 am on Jun 24, 2010 (gmt 0)

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Rinse and repeat... as this krap will not go away...


I don't blame you for saying this but it is attitudes like this that allow it to proliferate. If people were more forceful in raising complaints about this the authorities would be forced to do something about it.

Meanwhile they only seem to be interested in protecting big business

See [webmasterworld.com...]

tangor

12:52 pm on Jun 24, 2010 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



I've been through reporting ATTEMPTED fraud several times. Guess what... first question asked is "How much did they get away with?" Answer: "Uh...none. I stopped it before they got it." Reply: "Go away. We're busy."

Pick and choose. Learned my attitude the hard way. :)

jecasc

3:20 pm on Jun 24, 2010 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



"Go away. We're busy."

If you are not living in Somalia or any other country without a half decent legal system, the police officer is in serious trouble if it gets known he turned you down and refused to take your criminal complaint. You should immediately report the officer to his superior and if this does not help make this public.

fabulousyarn

4:40 pm on Jun 24, 2010 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



I am thinking FBI, not local police. Green Jello, hmm.

Judy

enigma1

6:02 pm on Jun 24, 2010 (gmt 0)

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@Judy, if you can afford it and you think you have enough evidence to at least get compensation for your time and resources then by all means go ahead start a lawsuit. You will get 100% of the outcome.

When you're looking for a sponsor I think is harder.

Now if the compensation cost you're seeking is not significant, the small claims court maybe sufficient.

Rugles

8:34 pm on Jun 24, 2010 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



You should immediately report the officer to his superior and if this does not help make this public.


Good plan. Or better yet .. just go punch the cop in the face that way you will speed up the eventual consequences.

HRoth

9:51 pm on Jun 24, 2010 (gmt 0)

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I don't know, jecasc. You keep saying how we should all report these attempts, but people in the US at least have explained that this is not effective. It does not do anything to report anyone who won't do anything about it, either, because the reason they won't act is not because they are lazy or corrupt. It is because it is the policy not to bother with this sort of thing. People are being murdered right here. Ya know? Someone in another country trying to use someone else's credit card to buy something online? Pretty much seems ridiculous in comparison.

dpd1

10:47 pm on Jun 24, 2010 (gmt 0)

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It does not do anything to report anyone who won't do anything about it, either, because the reason they won't act is not because they are lazy or corrupt. It is because it is the policy not to bother with this sort of thing. People are being murdered right here. Ya know?


And even then, sometimes it isn't enough... I had some lunatic following me in my car one time. I had no idea what his deal was, but I wasn't about to stop and get my head blown off finding out. I called the cops... Told them what was happening. The desk officer goes "So what do you want US to do"?

Swear to god, true story.

sleepy_eye

12:42 am on Jun 25, 2010 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



I tried to report some fraud this morning. Same people hit us every summer (summer related item). I actually have their real address and about 2k worth of attempts, ( I have called and threatened police on them a few times). Called the bank, no fraud dept, got transferred around, they would not even call the card holder to warn them. Called police in their area, 'we will make a note of it sir' and they seemed more interested in who I was. Result, wasted an hour. :(

jecasc

9:51 am on Jun 25, 2010 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



People are being murdered right here.

Yes, and thats a job for the homicide department. It's always the same lame excuses from merchants: Oh, they have better things to do. No they don't. The guys in the fraud department don't have anything better to do, like save kittens from trees or catching murderes, because thats not their job. And if as you all say the police is not interested in the crimes you report, you should definetly consider doing something about that. Because they get paid with your money.

As for reporting fraud to the bank: That's a waste of time, they are not the police, what should they do? Send out a squad of chartered accountants?

Reporting fraud by phone? Are you kidding me? That's a waste of time. What are the police going to do? Look at your evidence through the phone receiver? If you want some results either go to the police in person with all your evidence, or file the investigation enquiry in writing and send it to the proper authorities. Or use the online forms that the police provides.

Of course if the fraudster is in China or Nigeria - I would agree that it is probably a waste of time. But if I understand the OP correctly, this was not an international fraud attempt.

HRoth

11:16 am on Jun 25, 2010 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Police where I live are interested in the crimes people report, but not in crimes they have no jurisdiction over or stuff that isn't a crime. They have no jurisdiction re interstate much less international fraud, and they aren't equipped to deal with it in any case. They don't have the money, the people, or the expertise. Last I heard, this would be attempted wire fraud, a federal crime, and if in the US, would be Dept. of the Treasury, which does have a report page for attempted credit card fraud. What good does it do to report attempted wire fraud on the scale we see? None, that I know of. Should we start carping about the US Dept of Treasury for that? Well, in the context of banks lying about their assets, skeevy real estate speculators, dicey mortgage companies, sellers of air-thin financial investments, ponzi scheme operators, and other really massive ripoffs, is it important? Is the US Treasury Dept. prosecuting these big fraudsters? Not much. Why should I want to invest the time "making an example" of someone who tried to place a fraudulent order when these bigshots are getting massive bonuses as a "punishment" for their crimes? I guess I just see it as pointless. Is that a reflection of the state of the US? Maybe it is. But the state of the US is not going to be improved by merchants going after attempted credit card fraud hammer and tong. That is a misplaced focus for one's energies, as far as I am concerned.

More to the point, what percentage of anyone's sales are fraudulent charges? And of those, what percentage of fraud attempts are coming from someone in the merchant's own country? For me this year, 90% of attempts are coming from Ghana. Last year, Indonesia. I blocked those ip addresses.

But I also think the focus here is skewed. It should be on preventing fraud, not on chasing people who try it. I am in a niche where there is not a lot of fraud because of the nature of what I sell. That was my choice, to sell the low-fraud (and of course low profit) things that I enjoy dealing with instead of high fraud, high profit stuff like plasma tvs, computers, or diamond rings. Nobody is being forced to sell a fraud magnet. That is the merchant's choice. If you do want to sell something that attracts thieves, then you have to be prepared to pay for all kinds of security that someone selling cleaning equipment or whatnot won't have to invest in. It's part of the deal. So the focus should be on preventing the fraud instead of going after people who try to commit it, IMO.

There is also a tax writeoff for bad debts here, so it is not like you are completely out when this happens.

The OP didn't mention whether the attempted fraud was in his/her own country or not, but to me, "ship to my shipper" sounds international, even if the shipper is in Miami.

akmac

6:07 pm on Jun 25, 2010 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



I delete and ignore international fraud attempts (usually) but if the shipping address is to a residential US Address, I usually report it to the police of that jurisdiction.

Contrary to what many posters in this thread have reported, I haven't experienced an apathetic response from the police. I suspect that this is due to the fact that the value of my products ($500+) makes a successful fraud attempt a felony as opposed to a misdemeanor.

My reports have directly resulted in arrests and convictions in the US and Canada, as well as giving some lonely hearts the message (via police) that their love interest in Vietnam (or Indonesia/Ghana/Nigeria,etc)has a less romantic ulterior motive, or that their home based freight forwarding business is less legitimate than they were led to believe.

So, while the vast majority of fraudulent orders should be deleted and ignored, there are some that are definitely worth reporting.

Propools

8:12 pm on Jun 25, 2010 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Send your local FBI [fbi.gov] office the information online.

From that point on it's in their "court". Follow up on your part is important.

jecasc, I agree with you 100%
This is a great partnership, you can report this to the Internet Crime Complaint Center [ic3.gov] which is a partnership between the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the National White Collar Crime Center (NW3C), and the Bureau of Justice Assistance (BJA).

fabulousyarn

8:28 pm on Jun 25, 2010 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Thanks, all - the attempt I have is from australia and of course they completely took in my salespeople - who now know better. Since we've responded to a negative with adding their 'freight' charges to the bill - this was about a 2k order when all was send and done. I will report to the ic3 site - makes me kind of ill that people do this - like, we're not some huge amazon-like business - we're little guys! Leave us alone!

Rugles

9:01 pm on Jun 25, 2010 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



the attempt I have is from australia


I have been getting a ton of those from Australia for the last year or two. I wonder why down under is a hotbed for this stuff.

Are there any Aussies who can shed some light on why that is?

wyweb

9:09 pm on Jun 25, 2010 (gmt 0)



Turn them in anyway. Do it.

There are all sorts of roadblocks in getting a successful prosecution but so what? Do it anyway.

Propools

9:34 pm on Jun 25, 2010 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Fabulousyarn,
Fraud comes in all shapes and sizes and is not a minor thing. We had to learn the hard way too. Hope all works out well for you though. ;)

MrHard

2:04 am on Jun 26, 2010 (gmt 0)



Problem is, you would have to really get ripped off to do a successful prosecution or even file a criminal complaint.

It's possible you could get the police to do a sting operation, but highly unlikely. A crime needs to be committed first before they can spare those types of resources.

tangor

3:27 am on Jun 26, 2010 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



I get chuckles on this one, kiddies! Cops investigate CRIMES, not ATTEMPTED CRIMES. They MIGHT investigate potential crimes IF THE MANPOWER is available (usually NOT). Needs to rise to Felony Fraud/Theft before you can jump start an investigation.

I deal with orders the same way we deal with walk in trade at burger shops on the Gulf Coast: "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service" which means if the order doesn't pass the smell test I don't fill it. Stock response is:

"There has been an error in processing your credit information. We are unable to complete. If you wish to continue we will accept a direct bank wire transfer of funds to finalize the order. Click here for further information."

Bank to bank transfers have weeded out all but the most serious (and valued!) customers.

BeeDeeDubbleU

8:51 am on Jun 26, 2010 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Cops investigate CRIMES, not ATTEMPTED CRIMES.

You mean like they ignore attempted murder? ;)

If someone is doing this sort of stuff on this scale then someone somewhere is falling for it. People are being defrauded.

jecasc

10:12 am on Jun 26, 2010 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Cops investigate CRIMES, not ATTEMPTED CRIMES.


Not where I live. Nearly every paragraph in our law books end with: "An attempt shall be punishable."

Be it as it may - my opinion is: If there is a crime or an attempted crime, then report it. And then it is up to the authorities to decide how many resources they attribute to the investigation. It is not yours to anticipate or assess the resources the police has or has not available for an investigation. If your neighbour plays loud music at 2 a.m. and you call the police they send a patrol car and ask him to turn down the volume. And you are telling me if you report that someone has defrauded or is attempting to defraud you, they will not respond?

Besides it is up to you to provide the evidence and file your investigation enquiry in a way that there is not even much of an investigation necessary. If you provide all the necessary details and evidence all they have to do is to confirm the information you provide.

I guess most here overrate criminals. Most are plain stupid and easy to catch - if someone reports them. In the case of the Original Poster it may be he reports the crime, the information is passed on to the Australian authorities, they send a patrol car to check the location and find the guy with a garage full of goods from frauds all over the world.

And even if you decide only to report local frauds, you make the world safer for merchants all over the world.

tangor

5:09 pm on Jun 26, 2010 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



I'm saying that the merchant should do everything to PREVENT fraud in the first place! Let's not put cart before horse!

BeeDeeDubbleU

5:55 pm on Jun 26, 2010 (gmt 0)

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I'm saying that the merchant should do everything to PREVENT fraud in the first place!

Perhaps - but that is not what this is about.

OK, you can ensure that your house is alarmed and locked but if someone attempts to break in that is a crime, even if they fail.

feiman

11:01 pm on Jun 28, 2010 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



We have to deal with this from time to time and get very mixed results from the police. Reporting to the local PD in the town where the shipping address is is a good course of action. If its a small to mid sized town, they'll often look into it. If you're talking LA, NYC, Chicago, SF, etc. they're likely going to ignore it simply because they're putting out bigger fires elsewhere (that's been my experience anyway).